Retail Relates
'Retail Relates' is not just a podcast; it's a journey into the heart of retail and commerce. Our episodes traverse the path from traditional marketplaces to digital platforms, highlighting the successes, trials, and invaluable lessons learned along the way. We're conversing with those shaping the industry—from the front lines to behind the scenes, the creative minds to the global strategists - offering a diverse 360-degree perspective. We're revealing the relationships and personal narratives that make retail engaging and accessible. 'Retail Relates' is an invitation to explore the world's interconnectedness through the lens of retail, encouraging listeners to discover the personal journeys and stories of those who drive innovation and unite us across cultures and continents.
Retail Relates
Revolutionizing The Customer Journey & Experience: A Conversation With Melissa Gonzalez
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What happens when you mix Wall Street savvy with creative retail innovation? In this episode, Melissa Gonzalez, principal at MG2, takes us through her extraordinary career journey. From navigating the aftermath of 9-11 to pioneering the integration of physical and digital retail spaces, Melissa’s story is a testament to resilience and visionary thinking. We'll uncover how she transitioned from finance to spearheading transformative retail strategies and working with major brands to reinvent consumer experiences.
Ever wondered how shifting from a hands-on founder to a visionary coach can revolutionize your business? Melissa breaks it down, emphasizing the importance of understanding where your highest value lies and the evolving landscape of consumer behavior. Younger generations are redefining expectations, pushing the move from product-centric to experience-led retail design. Hear Melissa’s insights on how intuitive technology is becoming crucial for creating seamless, engaging customer journeys, and why pop-up stores are not just a trend but a powerful tool for market testing and consumer connection.
COVID-19 has made brands rethink their real estate strategies, and Melissa provides thought-provoking examples like Dick’s Sporting Goods and Nordstrom, which are leading the way with unique, localized flagship experiences. She also shares personal stories about mentors who've influenced her path, offering sage advice for students and professionals alike. Whether it’s the wisdom of curiosity, the power of mentorship, or the strategic use of technology, Melissa’s insights promise to inspire and educate, making this episode a must-listen for anyone passionate about the future of retail.
Melissa Gonzalez Biography:
Melissa Gonzalez is a principal at MG2, a leading global design and architecture firm, where she heads the MG2 Advisory Group. With a robust background as a Wall Street executive and seasoned entrepreneur, Melissa has become a key advisor to some of the fastest-growing direct-to-consumer companies and well-established brands. Her expertise lies in blending innovative strategies with actionable insights from concept through implementation, continually pushing the boundaries of experiential retail environments. Melissa and her team have pioneered the integration of physical and digital retail spaces, creating cutting-edge concepts that enhance consumer engagement for major brands like Nordstrom, Victoria’s Secret, and Kizik. She is the author of "The Pop-up Paradigm: How Brands Build Human Connections in a Digital Age" and has produced over 200 brick-and-mortar experiences nationwide. These projects focus on creating immersive moments that drive ROI and allow clients to convey compelling stories to their audience. Her significant contributions to the field have garnered prestigious recognitions, including being named one of the Top 10 Executives in New York City to Watch by the New York Business Journal, one of WWD’s “25 Most Influential Women Leaders of 2022”, and consistently recognized as one of the leading ‘Women In Design’ and ‘Top Retail Design Influencers of the Year’. Additionally, Melissa is a prolific speaker and has been featured in publications like The New York Times and Forbes. She is the creator and host of the Retail Refined podcast, which explores future in-store technologies and has spoken at major industry events such as Shoptalk and NRF’s Retail’s Big Show. Melissa finds inspiration in adventurous activities outside her professional pursuits, such as skydiving from 10,000 feet.
Hey, my podcast BFF.
Rich:Have you figured out? So you don't want to say co-hosts, are you landing on podcast BFFs?
Gautham:Pretty much, yeah, okay, I can relate with that, no one called me BFF, so this is awesome.
Paula:I'll make you charm your BFF bracelet and send it to you.
Rich:You know it is. I am laughing because, as much deliberation as we went through as to what to call this and we landed on relates and now it's like natural that we keep using it in in different shows in different ways.
Paula:So I think it's become very relatable well, I'm excited about melissa, first of all as a female. Anytime we can have a woman, just inspire other women, show the rope, show that you know a woman is made this far.
Gautham:I'm all for that yeah, I'm excited because you know it's not often that you see someone who starts off their career in finance, moving into retail and up to more of the experiential aspects of retail right and an entrepreneur as well. So it'll be interesting to see how that journey evolved, what were the pivotal points in that transformation, if you will, and where she sees retail and customer experience heading.
Rich:Yeah, I you know she's been a unique influence. She sees things differently. When many in the retail world were heading towards the digital space, as this is the death of physical retail, she was one of those that has always championed physical retail and the integration, the seamless integration with digital and really focusing on that, whether you call it unified commerce or omni-channel or just the customer experience. So I'm always interested in hearing her perspective on what is going on in the industry.
Gautham:Well. So I had the good fortune of actually listening to her speak when I was running the Center for Retail Transformation at George Mason University. You know she spoke to a whole bunch of students and it was one of the most influential sessions when it came to influencing students to think about retail in a different light. And it's not just because of her experiences but the way she presented herself in that 30-minute conversation that always stood out to me. So I can't wait to see how this conversation goes.
Paula:Fantastic. So shall we get into it, gentlemen? Hi, melissa. We are excited to welcome Melissa Gonzalez to the program today at Retail Relate. Melissa is a principal at MG2 and leads their MG2 advisory group, where she merges innovative strategies with deep industry insights to transform retail environments. She has pioneered significant advancements of integrating physical and digital spaces for major brands like Nordstrom and Victoria's Secret. Recognized as one of the top 10 executives in New York City to watch, and consistently listed among WWD's 2025 most influential women leaders, melissa's impact on retail design is absolutely profound. For those interested in exploring her extensive contributions to the field, melissa's biography is available on our show link. So, melissa, thank you so much for joining us. Yes, thank you so much for having me.
Melissa:It's always nice to hear an introduction of yourself.
Paula:I appreciate it. Well, you're lucky because I only gave the short version, so I'm going to read your bio at another time. So this is where we want to get to know you a little bit more, not your entire resume, but what led you to where you are today. That's what we really want to know. If retail relates, is what makes you so relatable, and also how can other people relate to you and get to where you're going? What were the three most pivotal moments or points in your career, that or life that have led you to where you are today?
Melissa:Well, I started my career on Wall Street and I was there sitting at the training desk when 9-11 happened. So I would have to say that's probably the first pivotal. I knew what we had to do in the moment, but I think it was the first time I really questioned like, what is my bigger mission when something so substantial is happening around you? And then that's when I first started to explore other avenues outside of finance. My second would be, I guess, 10 years later, in 2009, where I officially left finance, and I think the pivotal moment was I had an amazing boss at the time who was an incredible mentor, who always pushed me for more. And when I realized I was in such an advantageous position to have a boss like that right, who's like always pushing you to be more, then my heart wasn't there.
Melissa:So to have a boss like that right, who's like always pushing you to be more, but my heart wasn't there. So it was a recognition of that and I actually, in a meeting, when he sat me down to promote me, I asked him to fire me instead. So it was an interesting conversation. He was in shock but super supportive, came back to me by the end of the day with package and so it gave me so much runway to explore what I could be.
Melissa:And then I think the next, the last and that third spectrum would be my realization, because when I left I didn't really have a clear plan of where I was going to go. I just knew I wanted to pursue something a bit more creative. Really didn't know it'd be in retail, but it was the epiphany that happened that helped me realize why I enjoyed it so much was my third, and it was this happy kind of marriage, bringing my business background but being able to always be in creative conversations and so being able to have that hybrid dynamic in my career was my third kind of like pivotal moment when that aha happened.
Paula:Tell us a little bit more about that. What? Where you're doing now? So you're saying you being being able to merge these two elements in your life. What does it? What does your day-to-day look like?
Melissa:I don't know. The day-to-day though is different, because I have kind of an external role and an internal role at our organization, but I would say the commonality is strategy and innovation, whether we're thinking that through for our clients or how that happens internally in the way in which we work. So a day to day or week to week is a mix of that the internal lens and the external journal and I would say for me it's always being constantly curious and kind of not just reading and observing, but I'm always thinking through what does this mean? What does this signify Like? What evolution is happening that we need to pay attention to? What opportunity is that opening up for us?
Melissa:And I think I bring that from being on a trading desk for so many years in the earlier parts of my career, where like real-time analysis kind of always had to happen, because I had news coming in at our 7 40 am meeting from all of our research analysts telling us what they were thinking and asking questions. Then you had the news going on in the background. Then I had other people on the trading desk. I was on the sales side, like talking through and we had to make market and all this stuff. So you always had to be quickly absorbing information, connecting dots and finding opportunities.
Melissa:And so I bring that mindset to today. And so I'm thinking about, you know, overarching trends and how consumers are evolving, how technology is evolving, and trying to extract insight out of that. And then working closely with either our design teams or our client creative teams, being that kind of positive agitator, thinking you're like okay, how could those learnings help us think different? Or pierce complacency? Or you know, a lot of the times people want to evolve but an evolution ends up being they change a fixture, but that's not really evolutionary. So, taking that mindset to our clients, to our design team, and then also internally being explorative in the way in which we approach the work, and I would say most actively now. It's like that exploration in AI and what that's going to mean for our industry.
Rich:Do you have a trademark? Positive agitator.
Melissa:I have that could be my Melissa Gonzalez positive agitator, trademark.
Rich:I like it.
Melissa:I have not.
Paula:Yeah, that's hilarious. I like to say positively persistent. That's what I tell my bosses when they ask me if I can get something done. I'm like you would be surprised how you get things done when you are positively persistent. I'm going to ask one more question and then I'm going to open it up to Gotham and Rich, but I'm curious to learn more about you as a woman in that position. So you came from Wall Street. I'm envisioning a female wolf of Wall Street for some reason in my mind and in transition to this very detailed human-centric role which you know Wall Street I don't know, I've only seen the movies, but it seems very cutthroat and to go to something where you have to be very empathetic and intuitive into what the consumer wants and what they need. So how are you able to make that transition and how are you able it's kind of a two parter to be such a strong woman amongst all those men?
Melissa:because as half the men have the call today as men yeah.
Paula:Yeah, but if you're a strong woman, in any field, it doesn't matter. They label you as a bitch. If you're a people pleaser, I mean, you're called a doormat, right. So I'm curious to understand more, and for our listeners as well. You know we will have a good bit of women that are coming up. What does that look like? How were you able to navigate that? Take what you had learned, make that transition, but also be that strong female in both of those arenas.
Melissa:Yeah well, I was well trained in being the female in the arena by having four brothers and also starting Make Green Wall Street. Because Wall Street? Because back then there was not as many women as there are today. I would say I was very fortunate when I worked on Wall Street where I didn't have as much of an uphill battle of how do I get into the boys club. I had really strong women with me on the desk and you did have to learn how to navigate that a little bit, but they were more like big brother approaches to me too. So I was, I was fortunate in that aspect and I had a lot of advocate.
Melissa:But a couple of things I learned over time is it's all about approach. You know. I mean I don't think we're gonna come in close to ever fully changing like the dynamics of different genders. We're always going to be a bit different. We're just wired different. I see the difference, like even at my daughter's age and eight, at eight years old, and how she already thinks as a female versus a male. So there's just some things in that. But I think it's it is factual. We have to approach differently how we express certain things because we are given different connotations. I could sit in a call with my male counterpart, who could very directly give somebody a message that I find to be pretty harsh and inappropriate, but it is well received by a man on the other side because that's how they talk to each other. If I delivered the message the same exact way, yes, I'd probably be a bitch, but I know that, and so, instead of being bothered by it, I take the approach of I'm smarter because I know that and understand that, and so I'm going to deliver the same exact message and I'm going to do it with finesse, and it's going to land probably even more effectively. And so it's an art a little bit, you know.
Melissa:But I and I've read a lot of books and I could recommend some of those books. I give those books to my teams actually to read, depending where they are at in their career path. One is called impact player, another one's called the multipliers, and depending where you're at in your career trajectory, different books will be appropriate, because where you're at and what kind of teams you're managing Like are you individual performer, are you managing teams, et cetera. But I think when you can kind of open up the dialogue with disarming the person on the other side. You can deliver a lot more information that way.
Melissa:Fantastic, thank you, yeah, so I can give you an example where I might say hey, I want to talk to you about something, because I know that we mutually want to be really successful at this, and so I have a couple of ideas that I'd like to talk through with you of how I think we could more effectively get there and so open it up more that way. So it opens up the dialogue differently than being like you're doing this wrong and you suck at this because I can't stand it. You know it's essentially, I'm still saying those things, but I'm delivering it in a different way.
Paula:Yeah, yeah, it's all about how you say it and I what you said resonates with me. Right, you've got to learn the rules of the game in order to play them, so why get upset? At least you've got the rule book. A lot of people don't even get that. Yeah, I'm going to take a pause. Gotham Rich.
Gautham:It's difficult to follow up with that, but I'm going to try and follow up on that. You worked in a male-dominated industry, right, and your accomplishments are wide, and many Just talk about one of those accomplishments that you're most proud of and why, right, like a lot of this is a learning experience for students and future retailers. So just give us a snippet of how Melissa thinks and what makes success for you.
Melissa:Well, I would say one of the things kind of more recently on my journey that I'm proud of is my personal growth as a founder who was acquired by a larger organization and finding my way within a different infrastructure and figuring out how you navigate that forward relationships and also learn a lot about in order to grow where you have to let go, and it's been a big learning.
Melissa:But I'm proud of seeing if I look back and sometimes I think it's very easy to forget to look back at what you've achieved and take a moment and pause and see that, because you're always like looking at the present and criticizing yourself for that. But if I look back from when we announced the acquisition to today, I personally think I've grown a lot in understanding. As a founder with a certain vision, you're not always meant to be a doer as much as you are meant to be like a big picture thinker who facilitates and coaches. And my transition of being a doer to a coach has been one where I think you know I still have more growth there. But when I look back, I think I'm proud of being able to invest the energy I needed to understand how can I get to that point, because I do think a lot of founders struggle at certain points to grow, especially through an acquisition, because they can't give up certain things. Eventually you learn if you can't give those things up, then maybe you don't have the right team.
Gautham:Can I double click on that question? How do you know when to let go, right? I mean, for all of us, that's always a very personal challenge figuring out when to let go of an issue, of a project. What's your thoughts on when, or what are your heuristics on when to let go?
Melissa:I think if you have the right team right, you will set the table and you will give direction and you can program your check-ins. But I'm saying to myself especially leaders, you're super busy and pulled into a lot more things and you tend to be a lot more horizontal than vertical, and so the only way you can be successful at that is recognizing where your highest value is. So I try to say, okay, where's my highest value? If I can determine that and then make sure I have the right team supporting what needs to be executed around that, then I'm in a position to let go From client to client or project to project.
Melissa:I kind of have to still gut check that assessment a little bit, but to me that's how I learned over time when I started to go through my days. And just because you're busy doesn't mean you're impactful. It might just mean you're busy. And so I was like, okay, if I look through my days and my weeks, am I where I can have the best, the most effective impact? If I am, then that's where I should be, but if I'm not, then that's where I really should be able to let go.
Gautham:And you do that every day.
Melissa:I mean, I do it week to week. I don't do it every day, but sometimes in a day I have to rejigger my day and I'm like, do I really need to be there? Do somebody on my team? You don't need me, you guys got this, just circle back what I need to know, and it's an exercise. It takes practice and repetition, I think, to more consistently do it.
Rich:So I wrote down obviously, professional, positive agitator. If there was if I'm asking you to define in three words or four words your core expertise that slogan or headline, what would it be?
Melissa:I think my expertise is the ability to listen and find the white space opportunity. I think listening is underestimated, and often people try to problem solve as soon as a conversation starts. So I've learned the power of listening and so I try to listen as much as I can and then illuminate. Well, have we thought about this? Have we considered this? I see an opportunity there.
Rich:So take that into consumer behavior and physical retail. You've obviously applied those skills. How has consumer behavior changed over the course of your career and how have you evolved with it?
Melissa:Yeah, I mean so much. I mean the consumer is savvy and savvier every day and I think that crosses generations. I've learned to actively study the younger generations because they're often the early adopters of change and then you know it filters through and then I try to. I see more and more of the influence that younger generations have to older generations. So I'm always studying that and I think there are so many things that would kickstart a conversation in design before that were more how many SKUs can we fit per square foot, and like there's a lot of space planning first and experiential kind of followed and it's flipped on its head a little bit where I think experience leads and we understand through the evolution of the consumer and technology that the way we think about inventory and like how many products for Squarefoot has different opportunities now.
Melissa:So that was one major thing. I think that the way we kickstart, the way we think of an environment is a little bit different, because the opportunities of engagement and technology integration and product fulfillment and endless aisle and product fulfillment and endless aisle they were conversations maybe 10 years ago, but now there's a different fluency that the consumer has and the way in which they interact with technology. That has created a new normal, and what makes technology integration successful is its intuitive aspects. So I'm always studying how we're evolving, because that changes what behaviors are intuitive to us as people and as consumers, which changes the opportunities of how store environments can be created and laid out, and even the sales team you know, the brand ambassador is also too like how they can operate and what's at their fingertips.
Gautham:Melissa, you talked a lot of technology integration in this conversation and you talked about younger generation, right, I'm going to try and dovetail those two elements into one question, and the question is I see a lot of people deploying technology for the sake of technology instead of actually experience. Now take it to the younger generation, where you've studied a lot. How do younger generations deploy technology and how do you think retailers can deploy technology for a better experience, right, not technology safe?
Melissa:For sure. I'm always asking for the use case and the why and where it flows in the journey of the customer, because I do think a lot of the times brands can be seduced by this is what all the other brands are doing, or what they see on the swipe, and we want to do that too. So we always have to ask the why, what is it facilitating, how is it in the journey? Because then that makes it intuitive and not every brand can answer that the same way, like I think what Nike could do is very different than a lot of other brands, because they have this interactive app and they have this audience that's already interacting with them that way. So then to connect it to the in-store experience is natural and intuitive, right to their consumer. They don't have to download some new app, they're already engaging that way. So I always you know we always have to think of the use case, and the use case can't be a bucket answer. The use case can't be we want AR, right? Why Right? Why? What is it facilitating? What problem is it solving? What is it being additive to? And then we do have to be honest around your internal infrastructure and your ability to keep up with the technology and the content creation and everything like that, because consumers do have a higher expectations around what those experiences would be like. You have to be ready in many ways.
Melissa:When I studied the younger generation, I think it's their fluidity, that's just the big difference. It's not novel to them most of these things. If I think of the alpha generation that we've barely touched upon the ability to study because they're underage and you can only extract so much information it's not novel to them that they can get an answer to anything they want to, anytime, all the time. My daughter's age everything is search it up, search it up. And if Alexa's not going to tell her, siri's going to tell her. Anytime, all the time. My daughter's age everything is search it up, search it up, you know. And if Alexa's not going to tell her, siri's going to tell her. And you know she can find any lyrics she wants. She sends me she figures out how to find TikTok videos and YouTube videos to send me a book she should get for her nine-year-old birthday party. Like they have access to anything and they can figure it out. It's so intuitive. So they're they're going to start introducing a whole other level of needs that we're going to have to plan for, because they're walking in the door so much more informed and their ability to blend the physical and digital line.
Melissa:In the moment, all the time is second nature to them. So that's also. What do they, you know? Like versus like. If my mom, who I adore, walks in, like there's a learning curve to that right and oh, how does this work and what do I interact with there? So it's different. My daughter comes with me to Crate and Barrel, for example, and whips out her iPad and opens up Roblox and redesigns what she thinks her bedroom should look like based on what she's seeing in that environment in the moment. That's another level of how she's actively creating and thinking about, how she's engaging with the brand. So I don't know what that's going to mean yet.
Gautham:And that's very community-alert.
Melissa:Yeah, what are they going to expect in the fitting room with the mirrors? Smart mirrors are still at early stages of what could be happening right, but I think it's really the use case and understanding what problems, what answers are you solving? And operational technology and experiential technology aren't the same either, and sometimes, instead of being seduced by the frontward facing experiential tech, the operational technology is where you could actually deliver more magic, which in turn makes it a positive experience. But I think often that gets underestimated.
Paula:So you wrote the Pop-Up Paradigm how Brands Build Connections in a Digital Age. What inspired you to write that?
Melissa:Well, I wrote that when I had first started in the early days of YNS Group, which was acquired by M2. And so at the time that was our specialty. It was experiential retail. Pop-up was a common format and I over time saw so many different use cases for that format starting to form and education being needed around that. I thought an emerging format that was here to stay, and you still see that today. But I wanted to educate and demystify. Here's all the different ways this format can work for you.
Melissa:Sometimes, if you're a major brand and you know you just need to show up for a short period of time, something impactful, limited engagement, that's a pop up and I think that's what most people understood pop ups to be. But there's also the opportunity of pop up as a prototype and there's a lot of things that you could test through that format. Because it's a shorter term commitment Doesn't necessarily mean that it's a marketing blip. It might mean that you know that you want to expand to certain geographies but you haven't fully learned like what's the right zip code or what's the right block, or how many square feet I need, or what's my right layout or AB testing merchandising strategies, and so a pop-up is a great way to do that because you have a shorter term commitment on the lease standpoint, but you also have a little bit more forgiveness to the consumer because they see it as temporary. They give it a little bit more forgiveness. So, as you're testing and iterating those things, it's a good format to do that.
Melissa:So it was really illuminating. There's a lot of use cases for this. Here are some examples. Here are some brands that have done it well across those use cases, some thought provokers and then also, kind of for the earlier stage brands, a checklist like do you at least have these things in place? Because if you don't, you're probably not even ready for a pop-up. And in the last chapter I was teasing out the future of retail, and that's the second book I need to finally sit down and write. But that's when I started teasing out the opportunity of AR and VR, 3d printing other technologies that would eventually show up in retail.
Rich:Do you ever go back to the book, look at it and say we're very insightful and kind of forward thinking? Do you ever go back and say and say if I could magically rewrite that I would? And I just heard you say that there's another book that you're going to work on.
Melissa:Eventually I, you know I can't say I reread it often, but I do feel confident that it was impactful because through my personal growth and evolution I've had to train people that my tagline, my trademark, is not pop-up queen, because that's what people started calling me after writing that and I, you know, do more than that. But no, I think it served its purpose in just getting people to think more holistically of the opportunity of that format of retail. But if I could write it again, I don't know, maybe I would give more airtime to the last chapter, because I just teased it in one chapter. But really, if it were to be forward thinking, there was so much more I could have, I think, leaned into.
Rich:Just gives us the opportunity for the next book.
Melissa:One day find the time. That's my to-do list.
Gautham:Melissa, could I ask you a question? You've spoken a lot about experiences. You wrote a book on pop-ups which is about experiences. Stores are a way to communicate your brand, communicate what you, what value you add to your, to your customer. As an academic, I often wonder this person standardization versus each store being unique? You've seen companies play with this. Where do you stand on this and talk about flagship stores versus not flagship like? Does that even make sense?
Melissa:yeah, I mean. One thing I think that came out of COVID that was exciting was there was more of a mindset to what you're talking about. You know a lot of brands re-evaluated their real estate portfolio and forced them to be a little bit more prudent about thinking about the opportunities in different geographies. So in some destinations a flagship experience is warranted. Right, it builds your brand and you're going to think about economics on these different formats differently too, right. So I would say, like Dick is a good example, dick's Sporting Goods, because they have leaned into more of that kind of house of sports and this is more flagship and it's not necessarily about product per square foot, it's engagement per square foot and there's a rock climbing wall and they partner with local schools and you know they can play soccer on the soccer field and you're creating a different relationship with the consumer with your brand. That creates a deeper customer engagement, lifetime value. Those people going there aren't going to need something for you every time they go, but your brand is going to be top of mind and they're going to be talking about you and you're unlocking an evangelist right around your brand. I think companies are successful to do that if they also think about the halo effect of that. Thinking of a flagship in isolation and not thinking of your full portfolio of channels and destinations for your consumer is short-sighted. But if you look at like a Dick's or if you look like a Nordstrom right, where they have multiple formats and they understand the halo effect and the opportunity it could have to customer lifetime value for those who are intersecting with their brand in all these different ways, then that's the bigger opportunity. So, like with Nordstrom, who is a client of ours but they publicly share this, the customer who started to engage with them in the local format was spending like 4x times more with them than the customer that hadn't, because it brought them closer to the neighborhood. And so there's three different formats, three different designs, but it's scalable and leverageable.
Melissa:And then on the second part of your question, like standardization versus not, I think there's an opportunity, even if you don't have all those different formats, to have maybe 80% of your design set and leave 20% for localization so you can roll out what's standardized. But then you could also acknowledge how you're showing up in different neighborhoods. So it feels a little bit more personalized and that's your way to kind of have a mixture of the two. You know companies like Foot Locker do that well. Like if you look at how they're showing up in more local neighborhoods and partnering with muralists, or thinking about how they're facilitating like the one in Washington Heights became a place where kids were going after school to do homework. Like think about how they're serving the neighborhood that way and the opportunity there and what that signals of what the brand is standing for and facilitating.
Melissa:It's pretty powerful. But you have to do your homework to be successful there. Like they did deep focus groups. They talked to people in the neighborhood. You know they brought in local athletes to be store managers. Like you really still need to do your research in order to be successful. How you implement that.
Paula:I want to touch back on something that you talked about, which was your mentors. So you said that when you started on Wall Street, you were fortunate to have women that supported you, the guys that were brothers to you. You had some incredible mentors along the way. Does one stand out, and which one stands out, and why?
Melissa:Oh, mentors. Well, I'm always going to put my mom on that list because she's always been a mentor to me. Irvay, who was my boss when I left Wall Street, will always be one to me because he always took the time to walk through financial modeling with me and help me think about how, like a hedge fund would think, or the mutual fund, like, really took the time. I think what makes us a successful mentor to somebody is one who can really help you identify, like, the strengths you have, help you illuminate where you want to go and then help you in that gap in between, right, like a lot of the times, I think what happens is you're told you can't go somewhere because you're not ready to be there. But the person that works with you to get from where you are to where you need to be, that's the gift, right. So I would say those two.
Melissa:I have another woman who we joke she's my friend, she's my rabbi, she's my mentor. She found me on Twitter, like when I first started Lioness, and she was an 85 broad, which was a woman's group, and she was like hey, I heard you had this cool revolving storefront. Can we talk? I want to partner for an event and ever since then she's just been in so many ways somebody that we cheer each other on for sure. But she's a little older than me, she has more years of experience and things and she's an amazing networker who's a published author about that, so she's been another one as well.
Melissa:I was recently at a retreat for women as well, called Power Down to Power Up, and we had active conversations on this topic. It was a spectrum of women who were early in their career to super successful, like Mindy Grossman. One person coined it this way, and it's like creating your board of directors for your life, and I think we think companies need board of directors. But if you have that group in your life and you think about the different kind of subject matter expertises that you'd want them to have around you, I think that's a great way to always have resources and mentors and support around you to help you kind of get through those challenging times and those humps and figure out how to get to where you want to go. Yeah, absolutely.
Paula:So I hear a lot of diversity in the people, a lot of diversity in proximity, and also find good people that will help you along and fill in those gaps, especially at MindScience. Yeah for sure.
Melissa:Yeah, and I think people want to do it too. So most people are honored if you kind of approach them to be a mentor to you. So I don't think it's something to be shy about. But the more senior the person, the more intention you should have as you approach. Second pet peeve but if you are, really do your research. I think that says a lot to the person that you're approaching and understanding, like why you want them in your life, and then I think people are honored to be able to fill that role. Got them.
Gautham:Rich, do you guys have a question to students? Where to give? Distill all your years of wisdom, personal and professional, into one advice for students, something you wish you had been told earlier. What would that be, melissa?
Melissa:Oh, be curious. I think. Be curious Like it's just. It's a simple thing to say, but I think so many people aren't, and even if you're an, a student, you still don't know everything. You know what I mean, and when you stop being curious, you stop growing. So just remember to always have kind of that mentality. And that is a book I bought for some people on my team that are early in their career. It's called the Smart Rookie and it is all about remembering to have that mentality.
Melissa:Writing the book down. I mean, any of us could read it honestly, because I think we could forget to be that way at any stage in your career. But I've had some talks and I remember one individual might listen to the podcast and be like you're talking about me, but I'm not going to say anything. I saw this kind of like area of just being a little frustrated and I said were you an A student always? And this person replied yes and I said, OK, well, put that behind you, because you're always going to be probably a type A and a top performer. But if you're not always learning, you're not always growing, and you have to have that mentality. That's how you know what I mean. You're going to achieve what you think you want. It's not just about, like, the grade you get. So that person said they enjoyed the book and I noticed some change. So I think that was a successful read. Enjoyed the book and I noticed some change, so I think that was a successful read.
Rich:It's the Walt Whitman quote. Be curious, not judgmental, yeah. Which a lot of people today are going to attribute to Ted Lasso, but it was Walt Whitman and Paula. Do you want me to kick off the round robin?
Paula:the wraparound.
Melissa:Yeah, yeah, yeah. So are you ready to have a little more fun, melissa? Get a little spicy. Yes, I'm going to hope I. Hey, I know you shared a little that this is going to happen, but let's see how fast I can answer.
Paula:It's yep, it's as fast as you can answer it versus the pops in your head. So go ahead, Rich.
Rich:Okay. So if you could automate one part of your life, what would it be?
Melissa:Reading my email, or close his legs and scan them and tell me what I need to know.
Rich:AI might be doing that soon. I'm not sure you'll like the responses, but we'll watch.
Melissa:I know We'll have to train it for sure. What's the?
Gautham:most unusual thing you bought that I bought or sold? Oh or sold, yes or sold.
Melissa:I should be better prepared for this one. Unusual, unusual, unusual, I don't know. I may have to come back to this one.
Rich:It's All right. So I'll throw you a softball and then you can come back to it, and then I know Paula will have one. So you speak worldwide. I follow your adventures. So do you have a specific walk on song? Usually pick one of her songs, because they're usually very upbeat and empowering, the ones that they choose.
Melissa:And you know it does give a little bit about that bad bitch energy. I think that's nice to kind of set the stage and it reminds me to have fun with the conversation versus, you know, kind of be nervous about the audience. I'm there to have fun with what I'm doing.
Gautham:Absolutely so. Not on the list. What do you do for fun?
Melissa:Oh, yes, well, I feel like that's evolved. These days Still love to. I like to hike. Because I say it changed because pre-motherhood I was more of an adventure bunny, so I would have answered I used to go scuba diving and I would go skydiving. And answered I used to go scuba diving and I would go skydiving and I used to have a best friend right around the city. But now I hike. I like to taste good wine. I took up coaching a little bit. Just, I was a soccer coach for my daughter. It was the most trying meeting I had every every week that it happened, but it was really fun and rewarding to do at the same time.
Paula:All right, last one, best one, uh, if you're having a dinner party, you can invite any three people, historical or fictional. Who would? Who would that be?
Melissa:a lot of. I think I'd have oprah. I would like to have a sit down with her. I'm very curious past. I think I'd like albert einstein, um, especially, I think, about innovation. You know, I think somebody's so forward thinking, that kind of persisted with things. And then, third, I think first, well popped in my head, I'll say it I think Obama. I'm just curious um having sat in the presidential seat like I don't know what he could share with me, but I'm curious. It would be an interesting conversation between him and Albert Einstein and Oprah. I don't know what we would talk about, but I think it'd be dynamic.
Paula:Well, melissa, thank you so much, really appreciate you coming on and we're just grateful. We'll put links to the books that you recommended and to your book, and we look forward to having you again, hopefully in the future, in a roundtable.
Melissa:Yes, and when I come back I'm going to know the weirdest thing I bought and sold. All right, we expect that that's your homework. Yeah, I'm totally going to think about it.
Rich:So who wants to bet that she is right now thinking about the strangest thing that she's ever bought or sold?
Paula:That question kind of sticks with you for a couple of weeks.
Gautham:Well, I'm expecting an email answer. So what did you guys think?
Paula:I love it when a woman makes it that far and I keep saying that because I'm a new mother and I'm noticing more and more how many women still drop out of corporate America. And it's just. I really love elevating these voices because it's possible to do it all. You do need a village. It's not easy. We got to keep women in the workforce daughter.
Rich:I'm a girl dad. The majority of my leadership team are women. I believe that I've seen stronger female leadership than male leadership and I'm going to leave that in. I do think, especially with what we're trying to achieve here, that a constant reminder of the biases that you may not see or that you may think that you shattered something, but time and time again it comes through. I'm glad you asked that question and I thought the way she spoke to how it made her stronger. It made her better at what she did because of how she traversed the waters. I thought was awesome.
Gautham:Yeah, I'll say that for me, there were a couple of points that stood out in the conversation. First, of course, was powerful, strong women who brought me up. I do think there is a need to elevate those voices, but what really stood out to me was how she took that question and converted it into hey, here's how I would bring this. It was not bringing down any other idea, it was elevating her point of view in a very positive frame.
Paula:But I agree with the comments you both made. What I also find really intriguing and I loved hearing about was her coming from startup and then tackling large corporate or having both of those. I can tell you that there are very few people that can move between those two worlds and she just does it seamlessly.
Gautham:She moves through a lot of worlds, I can tell Well think about this right Finance to retail, startups, to corporate, like it speaks to her adaptability as a person who has a pet peeve when people say I'm going to deploy, what technology are you deploying? I loved her conversation where she talked about you know technology should be deployed to solve a customer problem.
Paula:Yeah, as a technologist. We have thousands of clients around the world. I've seen it as well right, people trying to just insert the latest thing just because, and not really having an end goal. And what she said was spot on Like we have to stop and think about how does this serve the customer, regardless of what industry we're in? How does this serve the customer, regardless of what industry we're in? How does this benefit the customer? It's a tricky place to be, but it's so necessary to stop. Take a beat, outline your goals, have a clear path and insert technology that has purpose.
Rich:I've seen too many companies that have implemented a technology because it's the next shiny thing and it ends up, in many respects, doing more harm than good. And she is a very holistic thinker. You can tell that. And another thing that struck me was her research into Gen A and Gen Z, and I think that's important because and the three of us have talked about it you hear senior leaders often talk about you know, this generation, this and this generation that in order for retail to work, in order for any industry to work, you have to appreciate, respect and embrace diversity, and that includes generational diversity. You know, when we've talked about this, we've said we'll do conversations like this with the Melissa's, but that we also want to do roundtables when we hit a topic where we can invite multiple guests.
Gautham:Let's do it. I'll sign up right now. I'll get people in for that, that's no problem.
Paula:Yeah, that would be a good one. That would be a really good topic. I'm on board.
Gautham:All right, well, podcast BFFs. This is Gotham, signing off.
