Empathy Before Automation: Ricardo Belmar on Retail, AI, and Leadership

Retail doesn’t fail because of technology — it fails when leaders lose empathy for the people the technology is meant to serve.

In this episode of Retail Relates, Rich Honiball and Guy Courtin sit down with Ricardo Belmar, a retail technology strategist, podcast host, and longtime advisor to retailers navigating digital transformation.

Ricardo shares pivotal moments that shaped his career — from building an early “store of the future” concept before it became an industry cliché, to gaining fresh perspective by stepping outside a long-held role, to discovering why empathy and understanding are prerequisites for scalable innovation.

The conversation explores:

• Why many retail tech initiatives break down at scale
• How leaders can avoid groupthink when piloting new technology
• The role of empathy in leadership and transformation
• Why AI must reinforce fundamentals, not replace them
• How students and early-career professionals should prepare for a rapidly evolving commerce landscape

This episode is a grounded, experience-driven look at the intersection of technology, leadership, and retail — and a reminder that progress comes from understanding the problem before deploying the solution.

👤 Meet Our Guest

Ricardo Belmar is a go-to-market strategist and digital transformation specialist with more than 20 years of experience helping retailers and technology providers deliver elevated customer experiences and optimize business operations.

Most recently, Ricardo served as Director of Partner Marketing for Retail & Consumer Goods at Microsoft, where he led partner go-to-market strategy across the Americas. He is the producer and host of The Retail Razor Podcast Network, delivering sharp insights on retail technology, AI, and executive leadership.

Ricardo is a founding advisory council member at George Mason University’s Center for Retail Transformation and the Retail Cloud Alliance, a featured member of RetailWire’s BrainTrust, and a perennial Top Retail Expert (2021–2025) as recognized by RETHINK Retail. He has also been named a Top Retail Voice by NRF and a Top Thought Leader across retail, AI, and transformation by Thinkers360.

He is a longtime supporter of RetailROI, supporting efforts to help children in need worldwide.

Chapters

• 0:00 Setting The Stage: Ricardo’s Background
• 4:18 The NRF “Store Of The Future” Breakthrough
• 8:51 Leaving A Long Tenure For Fresh Perspective
• 12:26 Slower Living And Rethinking Success
• 13:41 Accidental Careers And Retail’s Many Paths
• 17:06 Why Store Experience Shapes Better Tech
• 20:50 Scaling Pilots And Real-World Variance
• 25:21 Empathy As A Leadership Superpower
• 28:58 Optimism, Adaptability, And Retail’s Future
• 32:01 Agentic Commerce And The Next Channel
• 36:51 Preparing Students: Fundamentals Before AI
• 42:06 Curiosity, Impact, And Rapid-Fire Close

Transcript

Rich H.: 0:47

Some careers are planned, others unfold through curiosity, timing, and a willingness to follow the problem instead of the title. Hi, I'm Rich Honiball, and I'm joined today by Guy Courtin, and we have the pleasure of sitting down with Ricardo Belmar, a go-to-market strategist and digital transformation leader who has spent more than two decades helping retailers bridge the gap between technology, operations, and the human experience. Most recently, Ricardo served as the director of partner marketing for retail and consumer goods at Microsoft, leading go-to-market strategy across the Americas. But his influence extends far beyond a single role. He is the producer and host of the RetailRazer Podcast Network, a trusted voice on AI, retail technology, and leadership. He is a rethink retail top retail expert and a founding advisory council member at George Mason University Center for Retail Transformation. Ricardo's career didn't start with just a master plan to work in retail. It evolved through pivotal moments from designing one of the earliest store of the future concepts at NRF to gaining a fresh perspective by stepping outside a long-tenured role to discovering that empathy, not automation, is the real unlock in transformation. In this episode, we talk about what leaders often miss when modernizing tech stacks, why understanding the store matters even if you've never worked in one, how AI should amplify fundamentals, not replace them, and why optimism, grounded in adaptability, is still retail's greatest advantage. Stay with us. This is a thoughtful, honest conversation about technology, leadership, and why commerce remains one of the most human systems we've ever built. We are back with another episode of Retail Relates, and we're excited that uh we're gonna have Ricardo join us in just a second. But first, Guy, it is good to see you again.

Guy C.: 2:39

Likewise, Rich. Always happy to do these and always uh get a lot out of them.

Rich H.: 2:44

And I will say this when my wife listens to the podcast, she keeps remarking that Guy sounds really smart. So at some point we'll have to.

Guy C.: 2:53

Well, you can just tell her that's the AI, the AI bot that's taken over for me, right? It's not really me.

Rich H.: 2:58

That works. And Ricardo, I have a feeling that when my wife listens to this episode, she's probably gonna say that Ricardo guys are really smart. And I think maybe that's my secret is just hang around with smart people. Ricardo, welcome to the program.

Ricardo B.: 3:09

Oh, thanks for having me here.

Rich H.: 3:11

We're excited and we've read your bio and really great background. What we like to do is jump in and kind of force you to edit a little bit. So I'll ask you can you share those three pivotal moments? And they can be personal, they can be professional, that have shaped your path and have brought you to where you are right now.

Ricardo B.: 3:31

Yeah, sure. Well, let me start with one that I think is probably the most interesting of the three. So I'm gonna go back maybe to I think it was probably 2012, maybe. Uh it was actually the first time at an NRF big show where I had uh the responsibility for the the business, the company I was with, the business's overall booth design, the messaging, uh everything that we were we were doing there with our event management team. And uh it was my first time doing that ever in my create actually having that response for like a 20 by 30 size booth. And what made this interesting and why I'm gonna, this is my pivotal example. So um, when we were figuring out, well, what are we gonna do in our design? You know, our our the company was with, it was a managed services provider. So at the end of the day, 90% of what we did for retail, we were basically an unknown. Nobody had any awareness or knew that we did any of these things. Uh, and a typical show for them meant that if we were lucky, a hundred people will come through the booth. And we're trying to figure out what are we gonna do that's totally different. Well, it's 2012, right? So at the time, it was a novel concept to talk about the store of the future. So we said, all right, let's make our booth a store. We're gonna have a storefront, a storefront window, big, beautiful display. We're gonna put departments in the booth. There'll be like an apparel section, a shoe department, we'll have a back office, an employee break room, and weave all of the things that we do into a story around how it fits into the store. You know, we start out thinking this is this is great. Now, at the time, I get we had no idea what NRS theme was going to be for the big show that year. So I'm gonna come back to that because that ends up being a critical part of the of why this is pivotal. Um, so we get to the show, right? We're we're we build out the booth, and one of our most significant things we did to make this eye catch is in that storefront window design, we actually built what looked like a window at the entrance to the booth, and we put a giant 85-inch screen in a portrait orientation, which it's 2012. So that was kind of a novel idea to put screens in portrait and not landscape. And it was huge. And you know, we had to build extra, and of course, today an 85-inch OLED screen would weigh nothing, right? But back then, 85-inch screen required like four union guys to hold it in place to be able to actually mount it. Um, so this was an impressive display that we came up with. We centered it, we put digital signage everywhere. We had, you know, iPads were new at the time. So we every department had an iPad and a touch interface as part of the experience. We tied into social media. Um, you guys may not remember Foursquare. We actually had Foursquare check-ins in the booth that would trigger an experience in there. So we did all of these things, right, for a store of the future. And we had a sign, which, by complete coincidence, was incorrectly manufactured that said store of the future, but it was actually built twice the size of our company logo sign. So our event manager said, you know what, let's flip the order. We're gonna put that sign up first and our company name below that, because that was the bigger one. And we thought that this seems like a smart thing to do. Now, that's what we came to realize. Oh, guess what NRF's theme was? Store of the future. And we were in the center aisle, uh, the third level at Jabitz, and just so happens that with this big giant sign that said store of the future, and that was the NRF theme, everyone came to our booth. And we had hundreds of and hundreds of people each day. It was a massive blowout success. And this ended up being like the first time that I had a real experience in the retail industry on the tech side. And from there on, I kind of what made me realize, yeah, I think maybe I should stay with this uh and can keep working with retail. So that was an interesting, interesting thing for us that uh we came up with. Um, and of course, we were the only vendor, I think, that year, that turned it made their booth into a store. Of course, the next year, everybody was a store. Every booth was a store after that, and everybody was uh a store of the future. But uh, but so that was that's my first uh first moment uh because it's really the one that kind of anchored me in the in the retail industry. Um if I think about uh you know other ones, I'd say that that same company I was with that company for over 20 years. Um so one pivotal moment for me was when I decided to leave and go to another company. So I went from what was about a $450 million business to one that was a tenth that size. But it taught me a couple things that were really important for me going forward. One was that um after spending that much time in one place, you kind of lose a little bit of perspective, at least for me on the, and I think this is mostly true when you're at on the tech vendor side. So everything that I knew about what customers wanted, what the that retail industry market wanted was kind of colored by the lens I was looking at it through that business. And when I went to this uh the next company, which again was a tenth of the size, and it went from you know having 15 different services and solutions to bring to just having one, it gave a very different, gave me a different perspective on how retailers perceived the technology and perceived the vendors that I didn't have in that first company. And a lot of it had to do with you know who the customers were, who as the company, as the business we valued as those leading customer voices, versus where I was going, where essentially we're at starting at the ground up. I mean, this was uh a much smaller business that was coming from Europe into the US and was successful in Europe, uh, very successful with retailers, but was unheard of in North America. So I get a very different perspective and looking at uh, you know, really understanding when when we talk about, because we always talk about understanding things from the customer's point of view. And I realize that, you know, you you need different viewpoints and different angles in which to look at that from. And when you're looking at it from the same one for 20 years, you you may have a tendency to get distracted and miss some obvious things. Um, because I did learn a lot about how people perceive the different technology we had, and it was not what I expected. So that was for me another big important kind of professional moment. And then also I'll give you one more that was I I come back to a lot. It's not really a professional, more of a personal uh pivotal moment. So uh many, many years back, uh, we had a family vacation where I went to we went to visit an uncle of mine, some cousins in France. And we spent about a month there. We basically drove through the whole um Bordeaux wine region, the Rhone Valley, visiting all the various small towns uh along the river. And it was really just to experience life in that region and to experience the different kinds of food, wines, and just flavors of that space. And it was not at all what I expected. Uh, you know, I probably went in having these perceived notions of, oh, well, you know, there are all these fancy, expensive wines that come from Bordeaux, Bordeaux that, you know, everybody always aspirationally talks about. And we actually drove through, you know, my my uncle had been there many times. All the small towns that we drove through were places where, you know, you got to actually meet the family that ran that property and that winery, and they didn't export anything. I mean, you know, if you wanted to buy their wine, you went to the winery and bought it, or maybe there was the store in town, and it was ridiculously inexpensive because it was so local. And then you would experience, you know, the town restaurant, because you know, again, there was so small town as the town restaurant with the most amazing flavors. And the main thing that would stand out to you is that the much slower pace at which everything was done, where it was all about the experience of savoring that moment. And, you know, what a pleasure it would be to actually have the privilege of having that bottle of wine and whatever that wonderful meal was that the restaurant was doing, everything else kind of comes to a stop, right? Because now you're just devoted to this moment where you're having a meal with family and you're not worrying about any of these other things that are around you that always consume your time. And that that's really what matters. You know, it's it's not about to me. I kind of, if I were to just, you know, looking at it now, if I were experiencing it today, I would say it's like the counter to hustle culture that says, you know, I you can't rush and do everything and be so intense that you ignore all of these other things around you that at the end of the day, that's probably what we should be trying to strive for, is to experience those things. That's why we're doing these other work-related things, is to give ourselves the privilege of having those experiences.

Rich H.: 11:22

I think that may be a theme. And I you're gonna correct me. France, uh World Cup in France was 98, right? 98, yes. Yeah, it's it's interesting because before then I went with my dad. We at I had just been to Paris, and of course, we went to Bordeaux and went to Nott's. And I'm thinking it's just gonna be a miniature version of Paris, and it's uh you know, I'm completely different, and exactly the way you described it. It's a much slower, much relaxed pace, and was it it blew me away because of the reputation of Bordeaux. Did you imagine that this is where you would wind up? What did you what did you aspire to be when you were younger?

Ricardo B.: 11:58

So completely not what I expected. That that's the short the short answer. Um, yeah, it's why I I I laugh when when you hear um, you know, I know you guys know Ron Thurston when he has talked about in his first book, right? Retail being your accidental career. I totally fall into that mode. Where so if I go all the way back to when I was in college, when I was in school, what did I think I was gonna be doing? Um, you know, I I have an electrical computer engineering back. I went to school at the University of Virginia. And when I was there, what if you were to ask me, what did I think I was gonna do? I expect that I was gonna be working somewhere doing design around products that related to sound, audio, video, like home theaters, big giant real theaters, right? That kind of production type equipment. Those are the things that really fascinated me. And those are the things I would I expected to be working, whether it was in analog devices, digital devices, but it was in that mode. I never in a million years thought it occurred to me I would be where I am now. Um, the closest I came, you know, at the end of school, the first job I went into was actually in data communications, which was totally different, right, from what I just said. But at the time, you know, I went into the workspace, you know, you it was not easy to find a role. It was not the best economy. So that happened to be what uh I landed and I went with it. But then, you know, until that moment I described before at the NRF, I never expected to be immersed in retail.

Guy C.: 13:19

Ricardo, I want to follow up on that because I think following with what Rich just asked you too, like it's interesting because when I talk to students or people in general about the careers in retail, right? The first thing that always comes to mind is you we talked, you mentioned this earlier before in the prep, right? Oh, you got to work at like you know, a JCPenney or a Macy's, or you got to work at Nike or IDUS or something, right? And and really get your hands, you know, into that world. And then you, you know, you go through the grind and you work in air quote retail. But I think you and I sort of follow a similar path, right? Like I work in retail, but through the tech side, right? Like I work with retailers through the supply chain providers, things like that, just like what you were describing. Talk a little about like how how should students think about that? Like, because the world of retail is more than just working at a retail level, right? There's so many other retail-related industries that are out there, whether it's tech, whether it's logistics, whether it's supply chain, whether it's what you and I have been doing. You know, can you talk about how students should think about getting into retail in that direction?

Ricardo B.: 14:18

Yeah, you know, the way I always look at that is that retail is one of these industries where people don't realize just how many different things connect, right? It really is, uh and I and I can admit, like when I started, I didn't know this either, right? Nobody had told me it back then. But you know, like kind of like you just said, almost any function you can think of has an associated role in retail somewhere, and not necessarily at a retailer, right? And and and you're absolutely right. So, you know, I other than you know, I've I worked when I was in school, I did work retail jobs. I worked in stores. I even got as far as getting to be an assistant manager in a store while I was in school. And and you know, I signed up, maybe we're coming back to later. I always I'm surprised at how many folks in tech um want to deliver solutions for that space that have never worked in a store and how the strange they find it, but that's a different story. But um, yeah, maybe a related one. There are so many different roles and so many different uh components in the and a broader ecosystem that surrounds retail. For whatever reason, and I've never really been able to understand this myself. I don't know why in in some so many areas retail seems to give like a negative impression, right? About like if you say I work in retail, people don't automatically think highly of it necessarily. It depends on who you talk to. But you know, because there are so many things that touch retail, at the end of the day, I like to turn it around and say, well, we're really talking about commerce. And at the end of the day, I mean, commerce is basically what drives our whole planet. I mean, our whole world is driven around commerce in one way or another. And when you look at how many different fields and associated inside industries touch commerce, it's almost all of them in some way. Um, I mean, you can even draw connections right into financial services and how that connects because of payment technology into retail. So, all of those are different areas that if you really look deeper as to what I could do that touches retail that's not necessarily even at a retailer, there's such a wide variety of things. And that's what I would say. If the student were to ask me, why would you, why would I care about retail? I mean, that kind of would be my answer is don't think just about a store because I think most people immediately think stores, and that not that that should have a bad connotation to it either, but there's so much more behind that, and so much more that you can do that can either be easy or hard, it's mostly hard, but it's you know, that you can connect into in whatever field you want to go into.

Rich H.: 16:36

And commerce is driven history. If you look at trade routes, and if you look at marketplaces and you look at needs and wants and all the things we study, it has been a driver for how we act, how we connect, our traditions. Have you reached that point? And and you and Gee share a trait from my perspective that there's certain people when you look at them and you meet them and you talk to them, you immediately know what they do and you you kind of that this is the box I put them in. The two of you kind of transcend that because you have a much broader scope of experience and interests. So have you found yourself thinking more like a retailer than someone who's a technologist or technology base? Do you ever find yourself crafting retail solutions in your head that aren't necessarily driven by technology?

Ricardo B.: 17:24

I I think the short answer to that is yes. And maybe the longer answer is that what one of the things that, you know, because I've always been on the technology side of this, right? But one of the things, um, when I was at that managed services company, you know, I own the product managed and product marketing role for a while. And one of the things I realized with my team is, you know, we're being asked to create more services that are going to be relevant to retailers as one of the key, you know, retail as an industry was 40% of their business. What I realized, you know, what it's you have to understand that business if you're going to create something that serves it. And so what I would do is, you know, when when I was attend a conference or an event, you know, and I would meet with retailers, I asked a lot of questions about how their business runs. Um, you know, even though even if my goal was something as basic and simple as just how to deliver connectivity to your stores, I really wanted to understand what was happening on the back end.

unknown: 18:16

Right.

Ricardo B.: 18:17

So talk to me about, you know, how you know your supply chain works, where your your how your warehousing is, you know, talk to me about how you're doing your e-commerce and what platforms you're using. I want to understand how that relates in a broader picture just throughout the business, because that to me sparks ideas, right? If I know how it works for you, it'll spark an idea for me as a technology provider to say, how can the technology solve a problem for you? You know, and so I know, which is probably a fancier way of saying, and how else would I know what the problems are that you're having if you're not telling me, right? If I'm not asking the questions. Otherwise, you just end up a technology for technology's sake. And that doesn't solve anyone's problems at that point. So I I think that's that's kind of been a key motivation for me, has always been that I like the technology, obviously, or I wouldn't be in the space, but I don't want to just put technology in to solve a problem. And so, like, and that's why I'm always so fascinated by operations in a store, because so many people want to throw technology at that. And sometimes that's not the right answer, and it's not going to be an improvement. Sometimes it actually hurts things and make things harder. So you have to really understand how things work in a store. Uh, and that's why, you know, jokingly earlier, you know, I always tell a story to folks at one of the companies I was at. We were in a room, uh, we had an uh an analyst and consulting group came and kind of talked to us about what do re what are retail operations like? And they got to apart talking about stores, and the analyst asked a question. There's 15 execs in the room and said, How many of you have ever worked in a store? Two of us out of the 15 raised our hand. He looked around and then he started talking, and we kind of realized, okay, so this kind of explains why every time I try to describe here's a service we should probably deliver to a store, not one of those people has any idea what I'm talking about. They would just look at me like I had three heads and say, Well, have you asked one of our customers about that? Do they really need that? Is that really important? I say, well, yes, that's that's why I'm that's why I'm bringing it up. That's why we're talking about it. And and having worked in a store, I've been there. I know that that's what happens. Really? That just doesn't seem right. And and it was always a second guessing uh interaction because if you haven't been there, you I guess you don't know, right? So that's I'm always surprised like how often I see that happen with uh tech providers that they want to bring solutions to a particular corner of retail where they've never actually experienced it and haven't really talked to enough retailers to understand what actually are the challenges, not just what technology do you want to put there.

Guy C.: 20:42

Ricardo, that's really interesting because I and maybe this is a leading question, but it's interesting because. When we think about retail, right? The the three of us here and everybody listening, we're all part of the retail food chain. Regardless of we love shopping or we hate shopping, like we are part of retail. Do you think it's one of those industries where, you know, if I'm trying to get a career in retail, as we talked about, whether it's in tech or in a store or what have you, it truly is one of those industries that you need to have at least some iota of experience, whether it's in a store, whether it's in the back room, whether it's in the warehouse, whether it's in accounting. But do you think for, you know, I have an 18-year-old. If I were to tell him, like, hey, he wants to get into retail, like, is this one industry you absolutely have to get in the store or some actual hand experience? As you said, right? Otherwise, you become one of those where you're like, and I don't even dare I say, well, we should put AI and do this. And it's like, well, wait a minute, you haven't even worked in a store yet. Like, tell me, talk to a little bit about that. Like, where do you see that in in all of industries, but retail specifically?

Ricardo B.: 21:38

I I think it's maybe easy to say that that's a unique aspect with retail. But when I think about it, I kind of think that's probably true in most industries, right? If you're not already part of an industry, which makes you an outsider to that industry automatically, right? And you come in and you want to solve a problem, I think it all comes back to, you know, how do you solve problems? Well, you have to really understand the definition of the problem before you can really come up with anything. I think we see that more, maybe because, like I said, because the three of us were in this space, so we see it directly. But if I, you know, if I were talking to a student, someone who's not been in retail ever before, right? And they're trying to understand why do I want to go into this? Well, it's maybe the discussion is more about, well, what kind of problems do you want to solve? A lot of the problems aren't unique to retail, a lot of them are. Um, but I don't know that that's really significant, right? It's more if what you want to do is leverage technology to solve problems. That's kind of how I see what I do. I like using technology to solve a problem. It always helps to have the best definition of what exactly is the problem, because you may have one definition if you're that outsider looking in from what it superficially looks like, but you might have a very different definition of the problem if you were actually on the inside doing it firsthand. And so, of course, you know, stores is probably the easiest example to look at. You know, if you want to solve a challenge that a store associate may have on a daily basis, if you haven't been one of those store associates, you probably aren't going to have the best definition of what that challenge is, unless, at a minimum, right, you'd have to talk to people who have been in that position and they explain it to you in detail. But at the end of the day, I mean, I think as we've all seen, and and Rich, I'm sure you you have direct examples, but people who work in stores, when they talk to people at a corporate environment, often don't see eye to eye on what the challenges are. Sometimes you do, sometimes you don't. And and a big way of how do you solve the problems, well, you've got to get to that common point, right? Where you have to have a mutual understanding of what is the challenge to be solved. When you're in the retail organization, then you have that direct visibility you can get. When you're the technology provider on the outside, if you've never been in that environment, you're either hoping that it's right, you're you're guessing that it's right. Ideally, you've have some firsthand knowledge that you've worked with someone that can give you that experience to know that what you're doing will actually solve a problem.

Rich H.: 23:57

And it's interesting that you say that because I I started in stores when it wasn't my career, and I was trying to figure out what I was going to do. And I am fond of Ron saying an accidental career. And I appreciate having that store background. I don't know that you necessarily have to have that, but you have to have that connection somehow, or it absolutely helps. But you can tell in talking to a lot of store personnel that they don't have that connection to headquarters, they don't have that connection to the other disciplines, nobody's asking. And one of the ways I can see it is in the course that I teach, over 60% are in or have been in a retail job, but they have little interest in going into retail because they haven't seen the connection with the different things that they can do. And that is somewhat mind-boggling to me that's somewhat of a lost opportunity.

Ricardo B.: 24:47

Yeah.

Rich H.: 24:47

You talk a little bit about companies and investing in technology. Where have you seen the bottlenecks beyond the simple identification of the problem and what tech can solve it? What other challenges have you seen companies face when they go to modernize their tech stack or implement something new?

Ricardo B.: 25:04

I often see the biggest challenge comes in scaling, whether that's uh, you know, for a retailer who's scaling from deploying a technology in one store that needs to then be expanded to a hundred stores and then maybe 500 or 1,000, or whether it's something that's not not a store technology, but maybe it's still a back end technology. It's something supply chain related. But um you always have to go from a pilot to an enterprise deployment at some level. And I think that scaling moment is often, I find, the biggest challenge because everyone wants to focus on that initial pilot and the initial side to make sure that it works. And while that's running, you have different challenges, right, in making that work well and making sure that it's going to solve your problem. And you don't always see necessarily what the challenge is going to be when you scale out to a broader organization. You know, I like using the I use the examples of stores for that because the fact is for any retailer, right, your stores are not 100% cookie cutter. Every single store is not exactly, you know, down to the last piece of cement, right? To every other store. There's always something that varies. And you don't know necessarily if that variation is going to be an issue for whatever the technology is you're deploying. It might not, and it could be fine, but it might create a variation. You don't always have the ability to predict that until you get to that moment. So that's uh, I find is a scalability challenge. And related to that, I often find that, you know, when when companies pilot a new technology or and or put it in some sort of test environment, there's a tendency to want to rely on a group of a specific test group that's been designated. On the surface, I think that always seems to make sense, right? Because you know these are people who expect something will go wrong and they're okay with that while you're in this experimental phase trying to get the solution to where it needs to be. But I think the counter to that, that's probably in my mind, even more useful is well, what if you didn't use the test group and you just picked a group where you don't know ahead of time what their expectation is, they're probably going to find things that your test group, if they run into it, they're going to say, Oh, yeah, well, we're just testing. So that's okay, let's keep going. Uh, and they won't think twice about it. But the group that's not in you know, prepared for a test environment, they might freak out when something goes wrong. And you might want to know that because there's value in knowing how they're freaking out about it to help you improve the design.

Rich H.: 27:18

I know Guy is jumping in with a question, but I will camp on that for just a second because I agree wholeheartedly. I've seen it throughout my entire career, that they end up, they're piloting a system and it's here's the case studies we want you to run. And you're a subject matter expert and you know how to do it right. And I was with an organization prior to the one I'm with now. I ended up as part of a test group because I like to break things. I like to do things in a way where I could see what I could actually do with the system and where would it break? And that ends up being just as valuable, if not more so, because that's the way a real person's going to do it. We had a system once where if you put an ampersand in, the system didn't tell you not to do it. But further on down the pipeline, something got clogged up and it led to an issue. And we didn't find that until someone mistakenly put it in.

Guy C.: 28:08

Yeah, no, I think building on that's interesting, Ricardo. Like you you talked a lot about too, sort of, you know, leadership and and the the change and what you and Rich just talked about there too, right? Sort of getting in a way groupthink, right? Like, hey, we're gonna do it this way. So when you look at organizations and and retail in particular, like what are some of the traits you think leaders in these organizations need to have to break out of groupthink, right? To be able to to to what Rich's point is like, hey, let's take a tour, what you just said, let's let's take a whole new group of testers on this new technology and not just say, hey, we're always gonna go to Rich Ricardo because we know they're gonna break stuff and they're gonna love it. But like you said, if they break it, they're like, Well, I expect to break it, right? They're gonna give it to someone else who's like, whoa, what what just happened? But what are some of those traits that people need to be comfortable with that?

Ricardo B.: 28:53

Yeah, I I find it might be the the most important thing for leaders is a sense of you know, building a real sense of empathy, whether it's empathy towards your own employees, your customers, the environment they're in, because empathy leads to understanding. And really, I think everything that we're talking about is about having the right level of understanding because we're all trying to solve a problem at the end of the day in some way, you know, like we said at the beginning, right, requires a strong understanding of what's the real root problem. I think leaders who who lack empathy tend to gravitate towards a mode of, you know, giving an appearance of strength that's a little artificial and doesn't always come off as authentic because they're being forceful, you know, in the sense that, you know, because I'm being forceful, then people are going to do what I'm I'm asking them to do. Whereas I really believe that if you reflect a sense of empathy and and therefore understanding of what the people you're asking to do something are experiencing, then you actually will gain their understanding in in return. And that will make you a better leader because you'll know how to respond to that and it will cause you to think of something differently. So, you know, to your point, how do you get out of the group think, right? It's because if everyone's used to working a certain way, you automatically gravitate to the same way of answering things. You know, if you're trying to solve a problem for someone that for something that's new, if you're empathetic to what the people are, the people who are experiencing that problem, you're gonna learn something new from them that you didn't realize. And that understanding is gonna help you redefine what you're trying to do in a way that you might miss. And also at the same time, because you do it that way, the people you're trying to lead will also, I think, feel a sense of encouragement that, oh, this person who's leading us, they understand, they get what we're suffering from, what we're doing. They're genuinely trying to help us. And so it's like a feedback loop, right? It works, the understanding grows, and the organization gets better and stronger because of it, I think. And that's how you you kind of get that sort of a growth mindset around it where everyone is now contributing because there's recognition that everyone around you, especially the leaders, you know, have that understanding and they recognize that you may be suffering from this challenge in some way, and that's why you're asking for help. It's not because, you know, you can't do something, uh, which might be seen by some as a negative, it's because you know you're just recognizing that you need help, and that's okay.

Guy C.: 31:07

That's interesting because I on an earlier podcast, Richard and I on someone, the other guests said the same thing. So that empathy, but also asking, you know, qu asking for help. Yeah. I want to ask you, maybe this is a controversial question, but you said something earlier when you talked about being at one company for a long time and sort of getting stuck in that mindset. Or and then when you when you went to a different company, it sort of gave you the opportunity to grow and to see things differently. So again, going back to my 18-year-old kid, are we now looking, or do you think it's important for people who are now going into the employment world or even old, you know, funny dads like me? Like it's important to change at times, right? Not get too comfortable in your position, right? Whether it's change within your organization or change organization, and especially like in the world of retail where things are moving so quickly because of the consumer driving everything. Is there is that one path? Are there other paths? I mean, is that a controversial thought where it's like, hey, every five years you should start thinking about, hey, do I need to go somewhere else to grow?

Ricardo B.: 32:08

Yeah. I probably wouldn't say that it's inherently a bad thing. And I think the issue is, you know, do you recognize where your perspective is coming? Uh so what I mean by that. So, you know, so I had spent 20 years there and I didn't realize that there it didn't even occur to me to have an alternative perspective. I just assumed that when I went to the next organization, I was gonna basically slide that perspective along and reuse it over here versus developing a new one because I just didn't realize at the time. So that was maybe a lack of a whether it's a self-awareness or maybe a market awareness. I think that's the key thing. So whether you you gain that by changing roles, changing organizations, that's one approach. But I don't think that's exclusive to saying that you can't be in one place for a very long time and still develop that new fresh perspective because and it may vary, it just depends on the organization. You could be in an organization where it's easy to change roles and move from different one area to another uh over time, and you could be there for 15 years and have been in 10 different roles and still gain that ability to have the fresh perspective. So I I think maybe every situation is a little unique. I I don't know that I would generalize to one extreme or the other on that. I think it just depends on where where you end up and what the organization is is like.

Rich H.: 33:18

But at a high level, allow yourself the flexibility to be able to move, whether it's in, whether it's within an organization or outside of the organization, or at least take on different projects and different experiences. So would you consider yourself, and I've never phrased the question this way, so I'm unsure of how the answer comes out. Are you a retail optimist or a retail pessimist at the moment? And how do you think technology is going to evolve that?

Ricardo B.: 33:45

No, that's a great, great question. I I I would probably put myself in as a retail optimist because I tend to think that as the technology evolves, and and it's no no question, I think, to say that it's evolving faster than it ever has been before. I think that in and of itself gives me that sense of optimism because it means that because it's changing, there are always going to be new ways of doing things. And I think when if we were to get to a moment where suddenly there's no new way of solving a problem, that's when I think I would lose that optimism because that's when it says, uh oh, now we're stuck. And the last thing you want to do is get stuck where you can't change. If anything, I think that I learned that I hope this is true for all retailers and maybe for the ones that don't learn this lesson, they they won't be around long enough. You have to be always adapting and always changing. You can't just be become complacent enough to think that I I've done things this way right now, therefore it's gonna work exactly the same way for 10 years, uh, because that's not where we are, right? It's gonna work very differently, probably three months from now with the way things are, let alone even you know, six months from now, or who knows? I mean, six weeks it'll be different. So you have to have recognize and have that awareness that on the one hand, you know, it's always changing, which means you're always gonna be learning something new. And as an organization, you have to be adaptable and agile enough to support that. But all of those things from for me, that gives me a sense of optimism about the industry that then you know things will will get better, notwithstanding any surrounding macroeconomic issues. But um, you know, there there's always a way to get through it. But um I think, and you even said it earlier, Rich, you know, there there are going to be some retailers that don't make it through. Um, and that's sort of a natural course of business, I think. I don't I don't think that's in my mind, that's not a cause to be uh uh pessimistic versus optimistic. It's just naturally what occurs in any industry. There are going to be some that stay successful, some that lose their path, lose their way and and fail, and other and new ones that rise up to take their place. Don't be a blockbuster.

unknown: 35:36

Right. Yeah.

Ricardo B.: 35:37

Yeah. Yeah. Well play.

Guy C.: 35:40

What do you see when you look out at retail? You know, what are do you think the new exciting things that are going to happen around the board around the band, whether it's in technology or new types of retail or or how we as consumers are gonna interact differently uh with retail, you know, with the buying process, the shopping process, the experience process, right? I love your example about being in the south of France in Bordeaux and just you know, sort of that experience. Like how how do you see that? How where do you see the the the optimism in you?

Ricardo B.: 36:09

Yeah, so so when when I look at what's happening for consumers, I I kind of see two factors really rising to the top as being the most critical for the majority. I mean, I'll never say all, but for the majority of consumers, and that's you know, price, uh price in terms of value and convenience. And so what do I mean by that? I so you know, you look at the different ways consumers have to make a purchase, depending on what the item is, what category it's in, different methods of buying are going to be more convenient than others, given where that consumer is in that shopping journey. If they're at the beginning and they're still trying to learn which product amongst many in a category, they one method may be more convenient than another. And I think what's changing is, you know, we look at what's happening with how AI is changing how consumers shop and how consumers interact with retail. You know, the biggest buzz right now, of course, is around agentic commerce and what does that mean? Is it a new channel? Is it replacing other channels? Does it mean the death of e-commerce, the way that when e-commerce came to be, everybody thought it was gonna be the death of stores? I kind of take a little bit of a middle ground view here, or at least what I think of is a middle ground. I don't I every time something new like this comes up, half the people who believe in it say that it's gonna replace everything that came before it. That's just natural. Uh, and then the other half say, no, it's never gonna replace any of that. That's complete nonsense. No one's ever gonna adopt it to that extreme. Don't be crazy. Uh, and usually the result is somewhere in the middle, right? Um, you know, e-commerce did not replace stores. It's what you know, 15, 16% of retail sales, whatever the number is. And sure, it's growing. Every year, right? That percentage moves a little bit more, um, which is why I always kind of laugh when you see these reports that come out that say, well, the biggest year ever for e-commerce. And I think, well, yeah, of course it is, because it's always gonna grow. I mean, it's not gonna, it would be news if it shrank, okay? It would not news that it gets better. It would be news if it was smaller. So for me, agentic is yeah, it's a new channel. It's a new way for consumers to buy. It's very convenient for certain products. Is it gonna be convenient initially for every kind of product? I don't think so. Um, over time, will it get more and more convenient as it develops? I mean, right now, uh, you look at the instant checkout and Chat GPT, right? I'm buying one thing at a time. I have no doubt that OpenAI will deliver something that lets you build a cart, right? It's just a matter of time. And in my mind, you know, it really gets interesting when that cart works across merchants, right? And I can build one universal cart. You know, you remember how many times that we had conversations in the past in e-commerce about a universal cart concept. Uh, I think Agentic Commerce may be the first place where that it kind of can be created in a way that marketplaces haven't exactly done. So I do, I do think those things will happen. I think absolutely customers will shop that way. And it has to do with, you know, what where does the convenience factor come in? If I'm buying home goods because I want to redecorate a room, I'm it might be more convenient for me as a consumer to use an LLM-based tool, right? To have a conversation about what things I want to buy. And then when it gets to the end, and I now find myself I've got a list of things to just say, yeah, go on and buy it for me. Find the best price for these things that we just talked about and buy it for me. I have no doubt that's gonna happen. There are gonna be consumers who will love that uh and will buy that way. But I don't think it replaces every for everyone. I don't think they're gonna switch from doing that to going to a traditional e-commerce marketplace or going to a store. It's gonna become one more channel and it's gonna take a percentage of total sales at the end of the day. I don't know what that will be and how quickly it will go. You know, I'm sure at some point we're gonna be, we're all gonna be reading reports that talk about wow, it's the biggest year ever for agentic commerce and and growth, just like they have been for e-commerce for the last 15 years. It'll happen, I'll be there, but that it speaks to me to the what consumers want for convenience, and it's yet another vehicle to get to that price value. And I think that's why, you know, why do you see why does Walmart partner with ChatGPT to do this? Because I think they it's probably partly hedging bets, right? To make sure that, you know, recognizing, yeah, this is gonna be an important channel. I better be there because my customers will be there. But I don't think it replaces everything the way a lot of uh, or the way I shouldn't say a lot, but the way some people are are kind of describing it. So I think that's the the biggest thing that's gonna happen for consumers.

Rich H.: 40:13

And I wonder how long it's gonna be. You you mentioned that every year, I agree with you, every year it's e-commerce is up and all the prognosticators. You and I have heard the same people say this. It is, I can have a purchase journey that incorporates the physical, the digital, the social, and where does that sale get attributed to?

Ricardo B.: 40:31

Right.

Rich H.: 40:31

You know, I I think Steve had said at one point, Steve Dennis had said at one point if I schedule a haircut online, but I go in and have it cut, is that is that an e comm haircut or not? And it's interesting. I'll I'll give you credit for this. I hadn't thought of a gentic AI as maybe democratized. The marketplace at the point when it can do what right now Amazon and Walmart and others are doing, taking me across multiple vendors. Yeah. If you were early in your career or back in college and you were looking at the landscape, what would you do to prepare for it?

Ricardo B.: 41:06

That's a great question. So there's sort of an assumption there, I think, that says that I, and looking at this, I would have a sense that says, yeah, I want to be part of whatever's going to happen in this space. So if I make that assumption, I would probably be looking at how do I gain an understanding of how these systems work in the sense of how do I create things with them as a tool. So it's one thing for the average business user to say, I can use an AI tool, whether it's in GitHub or something with vibe coding and build something, versus someone that actually knows how to code, right, and uses the same tools to build something else. You're going to get very different results. So if I were, if I were that, that's it, I'd probably look at, you know, what are the new things I need to get familiar with, but not do it at the expense of that foundational piece. So one of the things that I hear a lot of, you know, is my my son just is in his first year at college now. And one of the things that I heard a lot that in the parent sessions at the university held, right, is, you know, well, everybody asks us at school, you know, how do we incorporate AI in what we teach? What I was always always pleased to hear is that the answer is, you know, you you can't learn to use the AI before you learn how to do what it is the AI does. Meaning if it's coding, right? Here's a basic example, right? I still should know how to code if I'm going to come out and claim that I'm mastering using these AI tools. I don't think that's an excuse to stop anyone from learning how to code if that's relevant to the field they're going to go into. You know, I think there's a lot of talk out there about how AI can replace, you know, is it the danger that it replaces a lot of these entry-level positions because the AI can do good enough for those jobs that if you put it in the hands of a senior experienced person, they can correct whatever the AI does wrong, right? Uh in the same way they could have with an entry-level position. So I hear a lot of talk about how that's the danger. It's those entry-level positions that are most at risk. But I think that if what should the schools be doing? Well, you still need to teach that foundation. You still need to know how to recognize what the AI is doing. And it needs to make sense to you. If you do, that puts you above, right, the typical average business user that's going to be using the same tool that has no background in in that space, but is just trusting the AI to get it right. And that gives you an advantage. So I think you can't ignore it. And if I were there, I'd be saying, well, I want to absorb as much as I can about how to use these things, but in the context of the fact that I already know how to do it myself. And I want to make sure I'm good at it before I go and layer on the AI on top of that. So that when I get to that point and I'm layering these AI tools on top of what I already know how to do, that's going to make me better than the average person next to me who only knows one or the other.

Guy C.: 43:32

It sounds Ricardo. Again, I'm leading the witness here, but you know, you your advice to the the young audience out there is really stay curious, but have at least some thread of experience with what you're going to be trying to suggest or work in. How do you think, or how would you advise those students to get that experience? Like what is their best avenue to dabble in some of these, like you said, writing code, yes, but you know, other aspects of business that they might be going into.

Ricardo B.: 43:59

Yeah, I I I guess the the way I would look at that is it the students don't want to do is fall into this mode where they think, well, if I don't know how to do this really well, that's okay because all the someone's gonna give me an AI tool that can do it better anyway, right? That's a trap you don't want to fall into because then you become dependent on it and you'll lack the experience to correct it. So whatever field and you're right. I mean, I'll use an example. You might someone wants to study mechanical engineering and aerodynamics. So I expect that there's gonna be a lot of use in industry in aerodynamics in any industry that builds things around aerodynamics, let's say cars, for example, that there's gonna be a lot of use of AI in that to help speed design work and to speed things along and to come up with maybe ability to test things that you otherwise couldn't test because you didn't have AI models to do it. But all those things imply that if you didn't have the AI tool, you knew how to do it, it just took longer. So I come back to the same thing with students is that, you know, so in my son's case, he still needs to study aerodynamics. He still needs to learn what that means. He still needs to know fluid dynamics, he still needs to know um solid mechanics. You can't get away by not knowing them just because there might be an AI tool that you run into down the road that can give you the answer. You still need to know why that answer is right. And so I think it doesn't change the fact that you have to understand the same fundamentals that you had to understand, you know, two years ago before we had all these AI tools. Does that mean that you want to put yourself in a vacuum and ignore the AI tools while you learn? No, I don't think that's right either. You know, the AI tools can be an aid in helping you get a better grasp and a better understanding of why things are why they are in that space. So, again, in my example there, if I'm studying fluid dynamics and if I struggle to understand an aspect about it, then maybe there's AI-related tools that can help me better improve my understanding of fluid dynamics as a sort of a supplement to what I either learn in the class with the professor or a supplement, whatever I get from going to the professor's office hours and asking them questions about it. It's just one more tool in the bucket, right, that helps you learn from that sense. You don't want to ignore it either, but it it never replaces the fundamental concept in modeling. You still need to learn those fundamentals, whatever the field or industry is you're going into.

Guy C.: 46:08

I think that's spot on. And it's interesting, Ricardo. There was a study that came out, and I forget where I saw it. Those in the Times or the Journal that talked about students that overrelied on AI did not last very long in their first job because, yeah, they they didn't learn the principles. They just said, well, the AI machine will do it for me. And then their employers are like, then why am I hiring you? Right. So I think that's the that's the lesson learned here, right? It is, and I love what you said. It's it really is just it's a it's a tool, super powerful, but a tool. Yeah. Right. And then it's between our between our ears that's gonna make us as employees more valuable. Right.

Ricardo B.: 46:42

Yeah, 100%.

Rich H.: 46:44

So before we move to the rapid fire round, which is my cue up to you to pick out the couple of questions that are going to stump you. Uh-oh. What is a question that you would ask those that are emerging in their career or in college right now?

Ricardo B.: 47:01

I I always think an interesting question to ask is where do you want to make an impact? There's sort of a follow-up to that that says that whatever your answer is, is okay because, like even in my example, that doesn't lock you into anything. Right? You may not end up anywhere near whatever it is you think today is is where you're gonna have make that impact. Uh it you may do it someplace completely different. But the reason I like to ask is, you know, if you have in mind that there is something you want to make an impact in, that's gonna give you a reason to drive forward, learn more about what whatever space it is that you want to learn more about.

Rich H.: 47:37

I like that a lot, actually. All right, Gy, you want to go first or do you want me to?

Guy C.: 47:42

I'll go first, Rich. And and you know, so Ricardo, this is not on the list because Rich knows I love asking this one. You have the ability to time travel. Would you go back in time or into the future? And there would be no impact, like this is not a you know, go back in time and you know, do something crazy. But would you go forward or backwards? And if so, how far back or how far forward?

Ricardo B.: 48:06

Oh, that's a tough question. Well, I don't know. My instinctive initial reaction is I I probably would go backwards and pick some time that I've in that moment I'm curious to know more about. Uh and I say that because going into a future and then knowing something about it is is gonna color my path to get there. And I'd be afraid that wouldn't be a good thing. Fair enough. I've debated that myself.

Rich H.: 48:30

All right, so I cheated, but I didn't cheat. Actually, there's a whole question as to whether or not you're cheating when you use AI. And my argument has always been that there have always been ethical questions centuries and centuries ago. The tools just change. So we just have to learn to use the new tools ethically. And I've used the tool to have it create an AI-oriented question based on the questions we typically ask in your background. And so my co-pilot here wants to ask if you could perfect one micro moment of your travel day forever using your AI co-pilot, what moment would you hand over? In a travel day? In a travel day.

Ricardo B.: 49:11

Wow. I guess that's sort of a function of my least favorite aspect of any travel day, which is always going to be getting through an airport. If there's anything in AI can do to make that better, I'm probably all for it. Because it's I don't I always want to attribute this to a hitchhiker's guide to the galaxy book, but I don't think that's right. Tux Adams is the author who wrote this in one of his books that says, No language had ever created the phrase as pretty as an airport. And that go fits to why, you know, I I would say anything that improves, enhances, makes an airport experience better. I'm all in.

Rich H.: 49:44

For future reference, the other one that it came up with that I almost used was you can hard code one rule for your personal AI and it can never break it. What's the rule? But we'll save that for another time. Okay, yeah, that's a harder one. All right, Dee, close this out.

Guy C.: 49:57

Ricardo, this is great. Appreciate it. I think the one lesson I'm taking from this is hold up, hold up.

Rich H.: 50:01

You got one more question.

Guy C.: 50:02

Oh, I got one more question. You do. I mean, do not let him off the hook. I almost got away with it. Almost all right, so let's talk about travel again. You've got 24 hours, you can travel any city or region in the world instantaneously, 24 hours and you come back. Where are you going and what are you doing?

Rich H.: 50:19

And your AI, by the way, is gonna get you through the airport and is also going to be able to do that.

Guy C.: 50:23

Yeah, there's no well, there's no airport like okay.

Ricardo B.: 50:27

Yeah, this this is Star Trek. You're just gonna get transported there instantaneously. Yeah. Um, so I I am a big fan of studying ancient civilizations. So I would want to pick so so for and by example, so when uh the first time I I was in Rome and went to the Coliseum um was a really kind of almost inspirational emotional moment for me, just realizing how old this is and how I'm standing here and I'm actually touching it and and realizing, you know, how long ago this was made and it's still here. So I would want to pick a similar place like that and and honestly on the spike, wouldn't I don't know how I would decide, but it would either be you know something like the pyramids in Egypt, or it would be something in like you know, so somewhere where the Incas were, maybe in South America and and what are they because those I'm I'm fascinated by those ancient civilizations and how these things were were were created. And and I just being there for me, it would be just is just an amazing experience. A Mayan temple and then volunteering with retail ROI.

Rich H.: 51:26

And there's a there's a plug for you for them that's pretty good uh doubleheader. So yeah. Hey Ricardo, thank you very much for joining us. This we could have gone on for another hour. I think that our audience will will love it. And I think I may take the question that you pose to students of what do you want your impact to be and turn that into an assignment. So greatly appreciate your time today.

Ricardo B.: 51:48

Thanks, Ricardo. This has been great. Oh, thanks for having me again.