Designing for Connection: Elisa Servais on the Future of Experiential Retail

What makes a store truly memorable - and why do some spaces feel alive while others feel transactional?

In this episode of Retail Relates, we have a conversation with Elisa Servais, a retail design expert, researcher, and consultant whose journey has taken her from Shanghai, London, and Brussels. Elisa’s work bridges academia and practice, exploring what makes in-store experiences valuable and how design can foster empathy, connection, and inclusion.

She shares how cultural awareness shapes global retail, why copying trends comes at the cost of essence, and how AI can enhance - not replace - human creativity. From luxury houses like Hermès to Belgian icons like Maison Dandoy, Elisa explains how the best retail environments blend local authenticity with global coherence.

It’s a conversation about creativity, purpose, and the human side of commerce - where design becomes a language of empathy.

About Elisa Servais:

Elisa Servais is a retail design expert, educator, and researcher whose work bridges practice and academia across three continents. Trained as an interior architect, Elisa began her career at Levi Strauss & Co., where she discovered her passion for retail design and the ways space can influence human behavior. Over more than a decade, she has worked in Shanghai, London, and Brussels, contributing to projects that range from global rollouts and flagship stores to mixed-use developments and city revitalization initiatives. Her design experience spans industries including fashion, food, and beauty—each reinforcing her belief that meaningful design begins with empathy and a deep understanding of people.

Elisa earned her PhD in Retail Design from Hasselt University, one of the few programs worldwide dedicated to this discipline. Her doctoral research, The Value of Experiential Retail Environments, explored how in-store experiences create value for both customers and brands—and how designers can better craft them. Today, through her Brussels-based consultancy, Elisa combines her academic rigor with real-world insight, helping companies and educators adopt a more strategic, inclusive, and human-centered approach to retail design. Recognized for her cross-cultural expertise and thoughtful perspective, she continues to advocate for a retail future where design, strategy, and emotion work hand in hand to connect people and place.

Chapters

• 1:32 Why Empathy Powers Retail Design
• 2:35 Elisa’s Global Path And PhD Pivot
• 4:44 Three Pivotal Moments That Shaped A Career
• 8:42 Challenges, Health, And Redefining Success
• 14:06 Courage, Risk, And When To Jump
• 17:47 Omnichannel Gaps And The Cost Of Essence
• 20:03 Three Questions Every Store Must Answer
• 23:31 Local Identity: Maison Dandoy Case
• 27:02 Standardization Versus Localization
• 32:32 AI, Physical Stores, And Reconnection
• 37:40 Tech That Tells Your Story, Not Theirs
• 42:24 Using AI As A Creative Partner
• 46:07 The Underrated Skill: Empathy
• 50:22 Rapid Fire And Closing Reflections

Transcript

Rich H: 0:46

What happens when a designer turns research into empathy? For Elisa Servais, retail design isn't about decorating spaces, it's about creating environments that connect people, cultures, and emotions. Hi, I'm Rachani Ball, and I'm joined today by co-hosts Judy Sedjini and Guy Courtin for a conversation that spans continents, creativity, and curiosity. Elisa's journey has taken her from Brussels, to Shanghai, to London and back again, working with global brands like Levi Strauss and Company before earning her PhD in retail design and teaching one of the only programs of its kind at Hasselt University in Belgium. In practice, she's delivered everything from shop and shops to rollout programs to flagship concepts and city center rejuvenations across food, fashion, and beauty. In academia, her doctoral work centered on the value of experiential retail and produced practical frameworks and how-to tools that designers and retailers apply on the ground. Today, through her Brussels-based consultancy, she blends design thinking, behavioral research, and brand strategy to help brands take a more strategy-driven, omnichannel, collaborative, and inclusive approach to retail design. She approaches every project with two essential questions in focus. What makes an in-store experience valuable and how can we design it? In this episode, Alisa shares lessons on adaptability, empathy, and what she calls the cost of essence, the risk retailers take when they chase trends instead of staying true to who they are. She reminds us that design isn't just about how a space looks, it's about how it feels and how it connects people to purpose. From Shanghai skylines to Belgian biscuit boutiques, Alisa helps us to see retail design as a mirror of human behavior and a tool for reconnection in an increasingly digital world. Stay tuned for a conversation that blends art, analysis, and authenticity and explores how great design doesn't just shape space, it shapes experience. So let's get started with this episode of Retail Relates, an exciting uh lineup today and topic. I'm joined by our co-host, Judy, of course a star student and graduate of George Mason, and Guy Cortan, who is the 'chatter in chief', I guess. That title is a new one, and I kind of like it. How are you guys doing today?

Guy C: 3:03

Doing good, Rich.

Rich H: 3:04

How are you guys doing? Judy, what time is it over where you are?

Judy S: 3:07

It's 4 p.m. right now.

Rich H: 3:09

And I'm gonna introduce uh our guest today, Elisa Servais who we just read her bio. Terrific background. Elisa and I have had uh many conversations via via WhatsApp and LinkedIn. Elisa, where where is it? Uh what time is it where you are?

Elisa S: 3:23

Well, I'm in I'm on holiday at the seaside in Calais, in France, so it's three o'clock here.

Rich H: 3:28

Well, that's one of the beauties to podcasting and to being able to connect virtually, if not in person. So let's get started with this uh with this episode. I'm excited for this topic. You have a very impressive background, a very unique background. What we want to get started with is a question that we ask of all of our guests. We'd like you to start with sharing three pivotal moments. It can be personal or professional, that shaped your path and brought you to where you are today.

Elisa S: 3:58

Well, I think the first one would be that I uh moved with my family to the United States when I was uh a teenager, 13, I believe. Um, and that was the first uh international experience at a very young age, and that helped to reinforce some of my natural traits like curiosity and open-mindedness that was already there, but I think having to adapt to a new country at that young age really helped. Um, but I think it also helped me develop essential skills that maybe weren't so natural. I had to learn to be very flexible, to be very adaptable, and that has helped me immensely in my in my career. And it also was a great way for me to discover people watching and cultural watching, like trying to understand cultural differences. Okay, I'm from Belgium, they're Americans. I lived in a very international city, so it was also okay, well, they're from there, and that's how they do things. Um, and that's also been like a great tool in my career. That would be the first one, I think. Uh, second pivotal moment was my first job, which was working for Levi Straussenko. And so for the little story, I'm trained as an interior architect. Um, there's not a lot of retail design education in the world. This is a topic which I strongly advocate is for more retail design education because most um retail designers end up being trained as interior architects uh with no marketing training whatsoever. So um either you're gonna love it or you're gonna hate it. Uh obviously, uh Levi's was my introduction to uh the retail world and marketing, and obviously I loved it, I'm still here, but it was a beautiful way for me to grasp this idea of a brand as a person, a brand with personality traits, with values, and how like a collective of people comes together to bring that idea or that person alive, and I just thought this is so beautiful. Like we're all working collectively around these shared values that Levi's has. And obviously, Levi's has beautiful values of you know, integrity and inclusion, and so obviously, it was a great introduction to retail, um, and I really loved it, and it's still here today, as you can see. And then the third pivotal moment would be my PhD, so that was not planned, that was quite unexpected, but it really brought me so much in terms of gaining a more holistic analytic and analytical way of thinking. I I have always been an analytical thinker, but it just deepened it because this whole academic approach where you have to first identify a problem or an opportunity, and then you have to build specific research questions that you want answered. It really helps to frame everything. And I really strongly believe that in the way retail is moving today, where you can't be designing physical stores as you did before in silo, but you really need to be designing them with like this analytical thinking of where does it enter in an omnichannel strategy, what's going to be the specific goal here, you end up having this analytical reflection of what's the problem, what's the opportunity, what am I trying to answer? So I really think that in terms of what it brought me, with the experience that I already had in practice, and now this way of thinking that actually is going in the direction of where retail is going, it makes me quite a unique profile. And I'd like to think that it has armed me for the future of our practice, if that makes sense.

Rich H: 7:34

It does. Is this what you imagined when you were younger that this is the path you would take?

Elisa S: 7:39

Not at all. It's really come as a big surprise. Lots of surprises along the way. I didn't think that I'd be moving around the world so much. I didn't think that I uh I think the PhD was definitely the biggest surprise. And at the same time, it's been a wonderful surprise, I would say.

Rich H: 7:56

What's a challenge that you have faced in at any point in your career that you took something away from that has stayed with you?

Elisa S: 8:04

I've had a lot of personal uh challenges, lots of things related to family. Um, I also was diagnosed with rheumatoid arthritis at some point, which is actually why I ended up doing the PhD, because I just couldn't necessarily practice as a retail designer anymore full-time. So I was thinking, okay, well, at first I'm gonna look for teaching, ended up doing a PhD. So again, it was quite unexpected and a surprise. Some of these life decisions that impacted my career path were self-imposed. I decided, for example, also that I wanted to have a child on my own at one point, and that obviously also has impact still today on what I can do and can't do professionally. Um, but the rheumatoid arthritis, for example, they just kind of landed on me. And so that I would say was a challenge, but again, it has taught me adaptability and it has taught me to pivot. Okay, so I'm not gonna be working as a retail designer full-time. What do I want to do? I want to teach. Here is somebody offering me to do a PhD, and at first I was like, no way, I can't do that, be on my own for four years in my head, I'm gonna die. And then in the end, it ended up being such a great opportunity, and so I think again, this brings us back to this idea of open-mindedness um and being open also to opportunities that come that you didn't necessarily expect. And now I look at my plan where I well, I didn't necessarily have a plan, but I kind of I think like everybody, you have an idea of where life, what your life is gonna be. You know, I'm gonna be married, have two kids, have a house, have this wonderful design career, I'm gonna be in magazines. And now I look at where I am and I think of this plan, and I'm like, yeah, no, that wouldn't have actually worked for me. So I think there's also this self-reflection. Uh, it's it's helped me to self-reflect and to be critical and to go, you know what? Actually, the life I have now is better than the life that I thought I wanted, if that makes sense. Um, and so challenges actually end up helping you grow and realize your potential and realize your happiness points, if that makes sense.

Rich H: 10:13

It makes all the sense in the world. And actually, with our audience in general, but definitely the students that are listening to this, I would footnote this and play it over and over again because I don't think there's anybody that's our age, whatever our age happens to be, other than Judy, who have been through a relatively long career that have enjoyed it, that this is where we imagined we would be. And if we go back and look at what we thought we wanted to be in the beginning of our journey, we might not have been happy. We likely wouldn't have been happy. We wound up where we were supposed to wind up.

Elisa S: 10:48

Exactly. And I think I would also add that it's still a challenge today. I'm still today dealing with the challenge of work-life balance because again, I have a four-year-old, I'm a single mom, I love my kid to death, but I'm still have all of these ambitions. Um, and it's so it's still a challenge today. And I think that you have to accept that life is always kind of a challenge, and that's actually what keeps it interesting is that in your career, you are constantly gonna have these challenges, and it's constantly gonna be growth, and don't just expect it to settle at one point. Um, what makes it interesting is the continuous challenges.

Judy S: 11:22

It's really comforting to hear as a newly graduate that you know there isn't really a solid plan because sometimes I wish I had, you know, a certain plan with steps that I could do. It's good to hear that, you know, life just works out how it's supposed to.

Elisa S: 11:33

I think, I mean, we'll get to it, I think, in some of the future questions, which are about some tips and tricks. Um, but for me, it's about open-mindedness, flexibility. Uh, yes, have some thoughts as to the direction you want to go, but maybe don't be set in that because you might lose out on opportunities that will actually arise that will be better suited for you. So it's about having like a path A, but being open to path B happening and maybe coming back to path A if you realize that path B doesn't suit you. Nothing is set in stone, really, basically.

Guy C: 12:05

Yeah, no, at least I I appreciate that because I I think in what Rich just said too, and and Judy, for your your sake, like if you had asked the the 10-year-old guy what he wanted to do, um, you know, firefighter, policeman was probably top of the list. Supply chain was number 175 on a list of 50, right? So uh, and here I am. I've been in this for over 25 years now, and I love it. But to your point, Lisa, it it it, you know, like I said, when I started out after college and graduate school, I I didn't know what's supply chain. I couldn't spell your supply chain, all the letters. So I I had one question, if I may to, because I think it's really interesting for me to hear, you know, sort of your pivots, and and it's I think it's to Judy's point, really encouraging to hear that you can do that. But in when you look back on it, I mean that's that took a lot of courage, right? To to take a PhD, to to obviously have a child, you know, all the things you've done. What do you think? And you mentioned sort of that first experience moving to the US, like for for folks out there who are listening, like how do they know like when is it to get uncomfortable, right? And how to get out of their their path, right? Like you said, I got path A, but maybe I should go to path B or C or D or you know X, Y, Z. But what do you think it it takes for someone to do that, you know, whether they're 22 or whether they're 62?

Elisa S: 13:20

I think it's definitely easier when you're younger. So I would definitely encourage people in their younger years to do it. I think for the simple reasons that you don't yet have uh certain framed life things that are there, like you don't have a house yet, you don't have a uh uh maybe a partner yet, you don't have a kid yet. So for me, moving to China was very simple. I didn't have any anything holding me back in a sense. So it was just when I moved to Shanghai, I just moved to Shanghai and that was it. And it was just very simple. There was like, what do I have to lose? I'm just gonna go try it. I don't like it, I come back. There's nothing, nobody else is gonna be impacted except me. So I do think at that age, just do it, just jump. Um, and that's easier. It gets harder, obviously, when you have uh children, because there are then consequences on other people than yourself. That being said, I think it's all about considering your entire situation. Okay, so am I with somebody else who can potentially support me while I try this? Because I really do need to try this. I really would highly recommend people to not have regrets. So if there's something that you really want to try, if an opportunity arises that you kind of want to explore, it's about seeing the feasibility of it. So just kind of again, analytical thinking, critical overall thinking. What can I afford to do? But also what do I want to do and long term, will I have regrets or not? This opportunity is not something that I expected, or um, this life thing is falling on my head. So I think it depends on the situation. But for me, for example, the rheumatoid arthritis, it just landed on me, and it then okay, it's not something that I want, but it's something I have to accept, and then from there I can pivot. The first step in case it's something that lands on you is about acceptance. So, okay, this thing just landed on me, accepting it. Now, what do I do? What's the pivot? Let's explore what do I like to do? I like to teach. Boom. Okay, so I went to seek universities and then they told me PhD. And then I was like, okay, not necessarily, but again, the open, keep the keep the open mind. Okay, so maybe I will be on my own, and that's not necessarily something I'm comfortable with at the moment. But at the same time, I'm doing the pros and cons. You know, I'm gonna be on my own, but at the same time, for four years I'm getting paid to really dig deep into a topic that I'm passionate about, and that when you're in practice, you don't have time to dig deep into. Okay, that actually sounds really nice. And at the same time, I get to teach as part of the PhD. So it's like weighing out, I think, the pros and cons, the feasibility. And in this case, it was kind of a golden, like when I did the pros and cons, it just ended up being a golden package because I was getting paid. So the financial security that I needed from my family situation was there. It was something a bit, yeah, it made me uncomfortable, but at the same time, I was thinking, well, you try. And there were like, I also checked, you know, like, what am I getting myself into in this case? Like, what if I fail, or what if I have to quit in the middle? Do I have to give the money back? I was reassured that I didn't have to, you know. So I mean, I I did my good diligence of also checking what there was to gain versus what the risks were. So it's like risk assessment in a sense. And I think my advice would be that a lot of the time we overestimate risks. We tend to be thinking too negatively. And again, my mind is trust life. Something always works out. It's very rare that things go really, really, really wrong when you're well-intentioned.

Rich H: 16:50

So that actually is an interesting pivot because I wanted to ask: you have this intersection between your academic research and your academic life and then re-real-world retail design. What's a lesson that you've taken from your doctoral research on experiential retail environments? And where do you think brands and retailers are getting it? I can phrase it as getting it wrong, or have the opportunity to improve?

Elisa S: 17:15

For me, there's two big things happening at the moment. Uh, the first one would be that I think most retailers are aware that we need to be in an omni-channel way of working and thinking, but that in practice they are still a bit stuck in their old ways of working, and that makes sense because you know, like operation side, it takes a lot of efforts to make shifts and changes. And so, in reality, they know they need to have omni-channel thinking, but in practice they are still a bit working uh channels in silo that is not aligned then with what customers expect. Customers today they expect seamless experience throughout all the channels, right? So they want something. I'm gonna be on my phone, on my on the on the mobile app of this uh retailer, and then in the store, I want something that's just gonna work seamlessly within that in terms of communication, in terms of product experience, in terms of product delivery, etc. etc. And at the moment, most retailers know that that needs to happen, but implementing it is still a bit difficult. So there's definitely something there that needs to be moving a bit faster. And then the second thing for me is that a lot of retailers are getting carried away with trends at the cost of essence, as I call it. So there's this call to be the first to be or to follow what's is surfing right now, or you know, so there's a big call for digital integration, AI use, et cetera, et cetera. And I'm not saying that that's wrong, but I think a lot of the times they're copying what others are doing, or they're just falling into the trap of what a supplier is telling them. So Walgreens, the fridges, you know, like a big disaster of millions of dollars lost because they didn't really focus on key essential questions. And so for me, if I have one tip for retailers right now, it's to use the three key questions that I use and which are like very uh strategic thinking based. Question number one is always does it make sense for my brand? Who am I? What are my values? What is my mission statement? Go back to that. That's your essence, that's the core. Every decision you make should be aligned with who you are as a brand. Question number two, does it add something to my target customer's experience? Again, while green fridges that show you what's inside of the fridge, which the glass door used to do, that doesn't add anything. So don't make that mistake. Question number three: what is the role of each specific store in your overall strategy? Are we brand building? Are we selling product? And in whichever case, whether you're selling products or whether you're trying to build your brand, how does what you're doing in this physical store complement what you're already doing in your other channels? Because otherwise, people have no reason to come to this specific store. So those for me are the three key questions that I ask my uh clients at every single first meeting. If I don't understand who your brand is, if I don't understand who your target customer is, and if I don't understand the omnichannel strategy and how this specific store contributes to it, then I'm not gonna be able to really deliver the most valuable store experience that I can.

Guy C: 20:35

That makes a lot of sense. And I I really appreciate that, Lisa. And I'd like to dig in a little deeper on that because I think what's interesting is what I'm hearing is a lot of your customers are sort of stuck in, well, stores are stores are stores. So I just, you know, put up four walls and some aisles and a cash register and put my inventory in there and you know, stack it high and let it fly, right? As they said in Seinfeld years and years ago. But obviously, as you've said, you know, retail is obviously dynamic, it's changing. There's a whole omnichannel, I don't even call it omnichannel, it's just retail, whether I'm on my phone, my watch, my tablet. Are you seeing the mature, or are some of your more mature customers, are they also understanding, like, hey, my store that's in, you know, downtown Brussels is going to look very different than my store in Bruges, and it's gonna be very different than my store in Lille. Are they at that level of sophistication or are they still, you know, still with your three questions sort of stuck? Can't we get through those yet before really being sophisticated on their view on individual stores?

Elisa S: 21:29

My own experience of my own clients is that I still need to work through the basic three questions. That being said, I do know of retailers and even local retailers that have that maturity, and that's why they don't need my help. So I'm very happy to also not be needed, to be honest. Um, yes, of course, you always want to be needed, but it's nice to see examples of cases where you don't need to be there to help because people are getting it so right, and that then becomes an example for the others. So in Belgium, we have a retailer, my favorite retailer at the moment, because they're getting it so right on all levels. I don't know if you know of the speculos. It's a Belgian biscuit. You guys all know the you you know the little biscuff, yeah.

Guy C: 22:16

So just just full disclosure, Lisa, my my grandmother's Belge, so I'm I'm part Belge myself.

Elisa S: 22:22

There you go.

Guy C: 22:22

So I love speculos.

Elisa S: 22:23

You know speculos. A lot of people know of uh the little red speculos that you biscuits that you have with your coffee in a lot of coffee shops, uh which are now called biscoff, which they used to be called something else, and all Belgians are going, why did you change your name? We don't get it. But that's another topic. But, anyways, the one of the oldest houses that make speculos in Belgium is called Maison d'Andois. And Maison d'Andois um gets it right on a lot of levels in terms of their retail strategy overall. They've decided to recenter on their core values. So they've really like it's a it's a family business and they're like their fourth generation, I think. And they really decided to do like a whole, you can tell they've done a whole exercise of refocusing on their brand identity. Who are we? What are our values? And right now their values are really anchored into like sustainability, localization. So they've actually used to have stores in New York, for example, which they decided to all close down because for them, again, it doesn't make sense to be like sending products all the way across the world. They prefer to focus on their local market of Belgium, maybe a little bit France and Holland. And then every decision that they make in terms of even product collaborations are all done with like local chefs to try and do this and do that. One of my favorite products is actually like a cookie that is made with 20% food waste because it's made from like the apple uh waste that they make into uh a sort of compote, like um uh you know, like paste, and then they put that in the cookie. And when you eat it, I swear you you feel like you're eating apple pie, but in a biscuit. It's crazy how good it is, and it's got 20% food waste in it. So, anyways, that's the product side. But in terms of retail design, what I love is they have tons of stores in Brussels, not tons, but like at least 10, 12, and each one is completely unique and anchored into the aesthetic that makes sense for the neighborhood that they're in. So they have three even in the vicinity of the Grand Place, which is our main square in Brussels, and each one is completely like if you enter, you know it's them. It's like the ASOP, basically. They're the the biscuit ASOP of Belgium. I don't know how to put it better, but you know ASOP has this beautiful retail design formula of like each store looks completely different in their design, but at the same time you can identify always that it's ASOP. I feel the same way about Dandois. I walk into each of their stores, I can tell it's them, but each store is a completely different universe because they've anchored it into the local context. So there are beautiful examples.

Guy C: 24:53

How far do you think retailers should go with this, right? Because then there's also the the theory of, you know, if I go to McDonald's in New York City and then I go to McDonald's in Johannesburg, I should get the same Big Mac fries and Coke, and I sort of the layout should feel this air quote same, right? So there's sort of that, but there's some all I know there's always some like regionalization, but it's always it's like or or Starbucks, right? Hey, Starbucks is Starbucks is Starbucks. From your sense, you know, especially I I I love your I your opinion from the design side, you know, for retailers, where's that line, right? Do you want to be so it's all standardized experiences? Or to your point, which I love, it's like if if I'm in Brussels and I go to one store to get speculos and they go to the same one, but the it's it feels like it's part of the neighborhood, like that's part of the experience. It's not just the speculos, it's the whole you know, store. But for some retailers, how do you see that sort of that that balancing act?

Elisa S: 25:44

Uh well, first of all, I'd like to say that using a bit of local anchoring helps both the locals, uh, but also helps with the tourists. Because when then you become a brand fan, you end up wanting to travel the world to see all of the stores because you want to see how localized it has been made. So again, ASOP is wonderful with their target audience of people who are very retail design oriented, because we're gonna make a point of going to every single store. When we know there's a store in the city, we make a point of going. Uh, I'm a fan of Dondois, now I go and see every single one of their stores because I want to I want to see. I know that I have some friends, I know it sounds crazy, that are friends of Starbucks, and they make a point of seeing what's unique in this Starbucks. Uh, what mug can I get here? So, to answer your question, I think for me it's about understanding what are the core elements that always need to be replicated, and understanding the percentage of flexibility. And that will vary from brand to brand because it depends on how big fans your customers are. So when you're a brand that can have really fans, you know, like obsessive fans, then the margin of the percentage of flexibility that you have locally can be very big. So, for example, Nike, they can go really crazy because people are really brand fans. So they can keep just like 20% of their core identity and the fixed, whatever fixed elements you decide, whether it's product-based, retail design based, whatever. You keep 20%, you can go 80% crazy locally because people are so Nike is so well known, it's so well anchored in terms of brand identity, and customers are really truly, truly fans. When you're a brand that's a little bit more both convenience, I want to say, and fan-based, like Starbucks is a little bit in the in between, right? So, yes, you have fans of Starbucks, but you also have a lot of people who abroad go to Starbucks just for the comfort of I know this brand. It's not that they're fans, but it's more the reassurance, if that makes sense. And there your margin becomes a bit smaller because there you need to make sure that you tap into that reassurance. So people are the people who are looking for the reassurance, they want to be able to find what they are expecting to find. Otherwise, you're gonna frustrate them. Frustration is the worst enemy of retail. And then you can have that 40 or maybe 50% of flexibility locally for the more fans or the ones who want to maybe explore the locality. And I think it's a bit of a hit and miss game, to be honest. And Starbucks is really great at that. They just try, and that's another tip that I was gonna share is just try. I mean, retail is all about trying and failing and learning from your failures and then bouncing back. And what I really love with Starbucks is that is that they do they try things, and sometimes there are retail design mistakes that I feel they've made. Like, for example, a few of their locations in Asia, I feel they went a little bit too far, localizing and losing a bit of their identity, but that's very personal for me. Like I didn't, I it looked more like a tea house than Starbucks, and then I start going, well, for the people who are looking for reassurance, there maybe you went a bit too far. Because I don't know that if I was entering this, I would feel comforted that I'm at my Starbucks. I would feel maybe a bit too far. So I do think there are a few examples where they went a bit far, but in most cases they tend to, for me, get it right in terms of understanding that balance.

Guy C: 29:11

Yeah, no, I love I love the the notion of you know how strong is your brand gives you more leeway, right? Because you're absolutely right. Like if I'm a Adidas or a Nike, like people knew who I am, so I can go a little bit more unique, if I should shall I say, than if I'm just you know a mom and pop, you know, selling diapers everywhere. Well, I just want to go in, no, I can buy the diapers and go out. So whether I'm in Bangladesh or wherever, it's interesting. I could picture my head sort of the slide. If it's 20% if I'm a big brand, I could slide it over this way to have more flexibility. If I'm not, then I need to slide and your your talk about convenience, I think, is absolutely spot on too. Like if I just want to come in with 7-Eleven and get my Slurpee, I want to just come in and get my Slurpee. I don't need it to be looking like the region.

Elisa S: 29:53

Well, for me, again, like the slide if you're going fashion is gonna be Primark Nike. You know, Primark is the the one that you can't change really locally because people just want a cheap, you know, whatever cheapest thing. No, but it's true. We just go we go to like not that I don't shop at Primark. I will shop at Primark because I have a four-year-old who outgrows things in three months. And so even though I don't necessarily like encourage this idea of overconsumption, there's just also the life reality of like her pants, you know, break, she grows out of them in three months. I don't know. She has gross birds, okay. Here I am buying pants again. It just sometimes makes more sense. And then I'm sorry, but you just want to get in, be able to find your thing immediately, get out, and you don't want to explore things. That's not what Primark is for in most cases. Then you have the other hand, where personally my love brand is Converse, I'm addicted, and then. It's a completely different universe. You know, like if they build a beautiful store with like they don't need a lot of codes that are their own to make me feel like it's my environment and that I'm there to enjoy it.

Rich H: 30:59

Well, you said it in the beginning, and um I'm gonna emphasize it in two ways. One, that authentic connection to the customer matters, and one of the problems that many retailers have today is copy the leader. If you're just following what you deem to be best in class, then everybody's trying to add this local flavor in, but it's the ones that have the authentic connection with the customer, and it's part of their brand where it's going to make sense, as opposed to where it's forced. And customers are figuring that out more and more. I'll use that to pivot to a question. I'm um surprised it took us this long in the podcast to ask the digital and the AI question, but I I have to. The immersion of digital and AI in retail today in both uh the the back end and the front line. How do you think that is impacting retail and how do you believe it should?

Elisa S: 31:58

First of all, I'm a strong advocate for embracing it. I think it's all about accepting the fact that society evolves, like we, you know, society has always evolved. There's always been shifts, and in retail that's the same. So it's about again understanding customer perspectives. Okay, what do customers see as the benefit of digital integration, technology developments, and AI? And then from their perspective, trying to understand what then that means for the role of the physical. And for me, the question when people ask me, okay, well, what becomes of the physical store? Well, again, from the customer's perspective, what does AI do for them and what does it not do for them? And then you have your answer for the role of the physical store. So it needs to be seen as a complementary. Like for me, I think a lot of people still seem to think that it's like AI or tech versus physical. No, they're partners. Like, why can't we just again have an holistic view of the overall strategy and just look at them as complementary pieces of a puzzle? It's about having this overall like meta-level um perspective, looking at it from the customer's perspective again, and considering, okay, so we're gonna have AI for this, we're gonna then that means that then the physical store should do this, and that means that then the web shop should do this, you know what I mean. Like it's about understanding how each of the puzzle pieces can be coherent but complementary. So it's not about being consistent. And for me, at the moment, if I had to answer the question as to what can the physical store add to the story, it's clearly two things it's 360 sensory experiences. So at the moment, technology still cannot immerse you in a fully sensory branded universe. So, in terms of like immersing people, customers into your brand's values, your brand's mission statement, and all of that, the personality, all of the things we've been talking about, the physical space is still the best tool to do that. You can really fully play on touch, sense, sound, and that helps people create the strongest memory in their brain of your brand. And then I think the way that we're seeing society change, we see that people, although we're more connected than ever, people feel more and more disconnected, uh, disconnected from each other, disconnected from the world, but also disconnected from themselves. And so I'm seeing a lot of shifts in physical retailing that are focusing on reconnection. So community building is a big theme in terms of physical retailing at the moment. We see a lot of brands working on this idea of communities. And then we're also seeing a lot of uh retail places now that are focusing on reconnecting to the to the heritage, to the place. And the third thing is we're also seeing a lot of places that are focusing on mindfulness, self-development. So reconnecting with myself. And that again, I don't necessarily think that an AI can do on their own. They could do it in combination with a physical space. So again, this is where you can you should be critical of how can we work together versus seeing each other as in in competition. I don't understand this notion of competition. The idea is just to give people the best experience possible. How can we do that using all the tools?

Rich H: 35:24

Well, automation has always been scary. I you've seen it from a supply chain perspective. You go to some areas of the world and start talking about supply chain automation, and you will have people that will worry about jobs. If you look at it in a certain view, they are correct. But it can also mean the advancing of jobs, the advancing of opportunity.

Guy C: 35:48

Yeah, no, I agree. And I I think to Lisa's point, I think you're absolutely right. I I think there's this strange divide where it's you know, it's like a zero-sum game where either we're digital and AI and automation or we're old school physical store, where I think what you said, Lisa makes is is where it should be, which is really it's retail. So the experience, right? The the 360 immersiveness, uh, the embracing of things like different technologies. To your point, Rich. You know, I think it's one of the things we look at in the supply chain side with robotics is that we've had, as you said, Alisa, communities, you know, society has evolved. Like that, that that is one constant. Things evolve. So robots are just there as a tool. Yes, you're gonna lose some jobs, but you're gonna gain others. You're gonna lose some things from the past, but you're gonna gain new experiences, which, you know, some might like better than others, which is great. And I think that's the part that's a challenge. And I think I guess, you know, pivoting to that too, Lisa. My question to you is when you see this sort of resistance, do you think, or are you seeing, are there specific retail sub-industries that are more open to saying we're gonna marry digital and AI with our overall experience in the store? Like Adidas, I'm in Boston. They had uh a really interesting uh store right by the marathon, the Boston Marathon, and they married a lot of digital with the physical. Back to your earlier point about making it local. Like that store was really all around the Boston Marathon, the history and all this, and they had all these digital exhibits you could see. They had like even a treadmill that you could actually air quotes run the marathon route, you know, looking at a screen. But it was a great example of digital, physical, you know, using some AI. And to back to your point earlier, they have great brand value so they can do this. But do you see, or are you seeing, are there specific sub-retailers that are doing a better job marrying these two?

Elisa S: 37:32

I'm gonna bring it back to my three questions. I think that what I'm seeing is that people struggle to answer these three questions. Um, and so again, some are getting it right, but a lot of people are just going, I need to have tech. I need to have digital. I've seen this great screen again. I had I had a meeting not two weeks ago with a client going, I saw at rituals that they had a screen above their till, so I want to have a screen behind my till at my store. And that was the briefing meeting. I I mean, I didn't even like I hadn't even asked questions about their brand yet. I hadn't asked questions about their customers yet, and I'm already being told that I need to put a digital screen behind the till. Like, whoa, calm down. Can we go back to the basics? Who are you as a brand? Does it make sense for your brand? Who are your target customers? Will this bring something to their experience? And number three, what is the goal of this store? Now let's rethink this idea of digital screen. You want tech integration? Let's think about how it's gonna work for what we just talked about. Like I see great examples in all sectors and I see bad examples in all sectors. I think it's again more about the retailer's ability to be aware of what's going on, but be critical about how that answers the three questions. And I think there are brands that really get it right. Adidas does a great job. Nike, at the moment, I'm a bit sometimes it's a hit and miss at the moment, my personal opinion, but I think Adidas is doing better than Nike at the moment in that regard. Some of the luxury brands are doing great. Like Hermes for me is one of the best at being very critical and being like innovative because they're doing things that only work for them. So there was this great activation around um, there's like an equestrian event in Paris every year that takes place in the Grand Palais. And of course, Hermes, hello, that makes sense for them, right? That's like, you know, where the brand started. And so, you know, their beautiful store in Paris that has like these beautiful shapes and the coffee shop, blah blah blah. Um, in there, they had installed in one of the beautiful little uh wooden uh lattice modules, they had installed a trampoline with a digital screen that was mocking, so you were jumping on the trampoline and it's mocking you riding a horse. Very simple when you think about it, and it is tech integration, and it's like this can only work for her maids. So for me, this is like a perfect example of how you can do fidgetal because they're using tech for their purpose and only for something that can work for them. Nobody else could have done this and it would have worked. Adidas couldn't have done this, you know, like le sauthermes. They called it le sodermes and it was perfect. So for me, again, it's about like there are examples out there of great brands that are really getting it, you know, like really being, huh? Okay, how can we use tech to sell our story and only our story? And those for me are the ones that are getting it so perfectly right. And I think as Rich said before, a lot of people tend to fall into the trap of copycats. They're doing this, so we're gonna do the same. But again, as you said, Rich, like people catch on, customers aren't fooled. What they want is they want to be able to connect to your specific brand. So be clear on who you are yourself and create something that is unique to you and that will help customers to create that connection only with you.

Guy C: 40:47

So sorry, I was I was laughing, Elisa, as you told the story about the digital screen. So I worked at Forestry Research in the late 90s, right? Dot com boom and and quick story, Colo Gun Water, right? They here in the United States, they ship water. And we literally had them come in and tell told us our CEO read an article in the Wall Street Journal about Amazon. So now we want to be like Amazon and we want to ship water direct to the consumer. And we literally looked at them and said, You have to be kidding me. It makes zero sense for your brand and your logistics. But they were like, we have all this money, we're gonna start shipping water to people. It failed. I'll just leave it at that. No surprise.

Judy S: 41:22

But yeah, exactly. Going back to what you mentioned about AI and combining both AI and like the physical world, what advice do you have for those like me who are about to enter the um retail industry that has become so tech-driven recently? How can we leverage um those AI tools to stand out?

Elisa S: 41:38

I think again, it's about first of all being self-reflective. Uh, it's funny because I had a LinkedIn post a little bit around this topic. I got really self-aware because a customer client, uh retailer client, came to me again in the briefing meeting with an AI image of the store she wanted. And this was the briefing meeting. I knew it was gonna happen. I knew it was gonna happen someday. I should have been prepared, but it still took me a little bit by surprise. Because she's a young entrepreneur, we had uh negotiated very few hours on her on her scope, uh, with me focusing only on like a concept sketch. So not like a detailed design where I would be able myself to build a 3D. So I wasn't self-aware of like, can I design just as well as AI? I know I can design better than AI. I got self-aware about the visualization because I thought, okay, well, she came to me with a beautiful AI visual. I'm gonna come to her with a hand sketch because that's all I have time and money for in terms of our scope. The lesson I want to share here is that actually the customer loved it because she was aware enough, she was able enough to understand the conceptual ideas that I was trying to represent in my sketch. And actually, funny enough, in today's day and age, people who hand sketch are more valued by some than AI images because AI images have become a little bit too common in a way. So the lesson I got from this are there's multiple lessons, but the the main lesson I got for myself was me as a creative, as a as a retail designer, how do I want to communicate my ideas? What is the thing that how what is my process? And my personal process is that I do my analytical research, as you guys have understood, that's like groundwork. And then I do my conceptual visualization, and that for to do that, I actually still personally like to hand sketch because I actually design as I sketch and I sketch faster than I prompt. That's very personal. That's just me, that's how I am. I I sketch faster, my hand works faster than I talk, because when I talk, I say too much, as you guys may have already gathered. Whereas when I sketch, I'm limited by the speed of my hand. So that's my personal preference, and also experience has taught me that a sketch leaves room for interpretation in terms of finishes, and so the customer tends to focus more on the big ideas versus if I show them a finished sketch at the beginning, they're gonna go, I don't like that flower pot. That's not what I'm asking you at this point. We're not at the finishing stage, we're the conceptual stage. Then I move to AI or to like 3D visuals for the finishing. That's my personal process. And so everybody has their personal process, and I think that's the first that that's the advice that I would have for you is think about yourself. Does AI again make sense for you if it helps you in your process and where in your process it can help you? I know that for me, AI doesn't necessarily it helps me a little bit in my analysis, but not so much. I don't necessarily use it for sketching because I just like to get my juices flowing, but then I tend to really need it for like certain things like color palettes, because I do know that, for example, that's one of my weaker points. I struggle to put colors together. And there, that's where I get digital tools to help me. And so it's about understanding yourself and your strength and understanding where um those tools can help you on maybe the things that you feel a bit less comfortable with.

Judy S: 45:06

Yeah, that's great advice. Thank you. I definitely agree with AI, you know, backing up your weaknesses and then with your own strength. I think that creates amazing work. So thank you for that.

Elisa S: 45:14

Exactly. I think for me it's the same as when you do uh any sort of teamwork, actually. It's about understanding the strengths and weaknesses of the entire set of tools, whether they are human or whether they are human and tech. I love teamwork because I think teamwork help gets like the best out of everyone. So again, don't be so proud that you can't accept what your weaknesses are. Like be smart enough for the sake of the project to understand this is where I'm good, this is where I need help, and then you get whichever help you need to work on that.

Rich H: 45:49

It's a good segue into the advice part before we jump into the rapid fire round. What do you think in today's job market is an underrated skill?

Elisa S: 46:01

Empathy. I think, especially in the retail world, it's extremely important to understand customers. As a retail designer, even more so. It's all for me, everything is designed around the customer journey. And that begins, of course, with again the omnichannel. So, how did they even come to the physical store? So I need to understand what they were faced with in terms of your brand communication before coming to the physical store. And so it's about putting myself in the like in that customer's shoes and looking at the socials, looking at the website, and just giving myself a mission. Okay, what does this retailer sell? They sell sofas. Okay, I'm gonna need a sofa. And then I put myself in this position of looking at the socials, looking at the website, trying to understand what they're saying about themselves, blah, blah, blah. And then same in the physical store. So with all my clients, we always act out a sales scenario. I always ask them typical questions. Okay, what's the most common need that people come to you for? What is the typical target customer profile? And then I literally get a salesperson to act out the scenario, and I'm acting as the customer. And that again gives me this opportunity to emphasize, to really understand uh what works well, but also what are the pain points. And I think that that's something that is a natural skill. Some people have it, some people don't. I think it's a skill that you can, however, learn and develop, and that I would encourage people to dig deep into.

Rich H: 47:28

So this is the part where it's the toughest because I know that we could go on for another hour or two and just have this conversation. We will have to find another opportunity and a topic to bring you back. But I am going to ask E you to kick off the rapid fire round. And at Lisa, it's just the first thing that pops into your head. Judy, you're next, and then I will close up.

Guy C: 47:51

Okay. I will fully admit I'm gonna make this on uh on the fly, but I I you know you talked about a lot of different places you live. So rapid fire, like where's your favorite place to live and why?

Elisa S: 48:00

My favorite in Brussels now, because it has all of the advantages of all of the other places I've lived, as in like it has all of the advantages of cities like London, Shanghai, for the culture, the food, the mix of people. Um it's actually you know that it actually is, I think, the top number one or number two in terms of uh being the most cosmopolite, as we say, cosmopolite uh in the world. So for me, like I'm cosmopolitan. Cosmopolitan. Um, so I've got all of that, but it's human scale. So I feel like I have all of the advantages and I'm still in a big village.

Judy S: 48:36

If you could travel anywhere in the world just for 24 hours and you didn't have to worry about transport, where would you go? I would go back to Shanghai.

Elisa S: 48:44

My daughter is four now, and we haven't been back. Well, she's never been, and I lived there for two and a half years, and I still have a lot of friends there that haven't met her because obviously China is not also the easiest to come from. So I would really love to go back, and also for retail design purposes. Hello, Louis Vuitton ship. I mean, do we need to talk about how there's a lot going on in Shanghai and I would love to see it. So both personal and professional reasons.

Rich H: 49:14

I'll have to send you a picture of the travel teddy bear I have getting a custom jacket made at the South Bund fabric market. True story, but that's for a different time. So I'm gonna close with space is very important to you, and I'm gonna take home off the table because that's a natural answer. Where do you go when you just want to be surrounded with a great space that you can decompress, that you can think, that you can be creative?

Elisa S: 49:42

That is not home. I'm a big cultural buff, and I find the moment a lot of inspiration in exhibition design, especially for retail design. So I think because also of the range of what there is, it's a perfect setting for me, depending on my moods. If I want to be alone, I can go see like an exhibition that's more about, you know, self-reflection or that's only for an interest that I have myself. If I want to spend time with my daughter or with my friends, then I can also pick an exhibition right now. They do a lot of kid-friendly exhibitions, so I can go and enjoy that with them. And also, it's a topic we haven't touched upon, but that's really important for me. Neurodivergence. So I am gifted and I struggle sometimes with like overstimulation, which is an issue for me because as a retail designer, I'm being asked more and more to design spaces that are more experiential, so more stimulating. And I find a lot of inspiration right now in exhibition design because they have mastered the art of stimulating in waves. And that's things that I want to take notes from because I I really want to bring that more into the retail design practices. I can see a little bit of interest growing, but it's very slow. And so I want to educate myself on that so that I can also help educate the future generation on it. Yes, let's build experiences that are fully stimulating, but can we do it in a way that is comfortable for everybody, including the one in five of the population that may struggle with overstimulation? So for me, exhibition, like going to exhibitions, it's really the perfect combo of finding creativity for my work, finding that mindfulness moment for me, and finding the connection with the people I love.

Rich H: 51:28

Love that answer. And that's actually a good topic to bring you back forward, maybe have a panel. Lisa, it was an absolute pleasure having the conversation with you. Judy, Gee, pleasure having your perspective as well from around the world. And we appreciate everybody joining us on Retail Relates. But Lisa, thank you very much for for coming in today.

Elisa S: 51:49

Thank you for having me and for these wonderful questions and for sharing your experiences, both Guy and Judy. I really appreciated that.