Retail Relates
'Retail Relates' is not just a podcast; it's a journey into the heart of retail and commerce. Our episodes traverse the path from traditional marketplaces to digital platforms, highlighting the successes, trials, and invaluable lessons learned along the way. We're conversing with those shaping the industry—from the front lines to behind the scenes, the creative minds to the global strategists - offering a diverse 360-degree perspective. We're revealing the relationships and personal narratives that make retail engaging and accessible. 'Retail Relates' is an invitation to explore the world's interconnectedness through the lens of retail, encouraging listeners to discover the personal journeys and stories of those who drive innovation and unite us across cultures and continents.
Retail Relates
Supply Chain Networks and Personal Networking: A Conversation with Guy Courtin
What happens behind the scenes to get that package to your doorstep? Guy Courtin pulls back the curtain on the hidden world of retail logistics in this eye-opening conversation about supply chain innovation, technology adoption, and what consumers never see.
As a veteran supply chain expert with 25 years of industry experience, Guy brings refreshing clarity to complex topics. He explains how the digital revolution has completely transformed retail by shifting power from retailers to consumers. "Digital has given power to us as consumers," Guy notes, describing how his son would immediately search online when a store didn't have the Lego set he wanted. This consumer empowerment creates tremendous pressure on supply chains to deliver faster and more efficiently.
The discussion takes a fascinating turn when exploring technology adoption. Guy cautions against the blind pursuit of buzzworthy innovations without clear purpose, particularly with artificial intelligence. "We're trying to predict the future with the past. That doesn't work," he observes, sharing how Motorola once ramped up Razr production just as the iPhone was introduced. His balanced perspective emphasizes finding the right applications for technology rather than viewing it as either a universal solution or an existential threat.
Perhaps most compelling is Guy's insight into how supply chains are evolving from just-in-time models to more resilient systems in response to global disruptions. He explains how retailers are rethinking inventory strategies while simultaneously exploring personalization options that can customize products at the latest possible stage in production.
Whether you're a retail professional looking to understand supply chain dynamics or simply curious about how products move through our increasingly connected world, this conversation offers valuable perspective on the infrastructure that powers modern commerce. As Guy reminds us, "You have to be your number one champion" - advice that resonates far beyond supply chain careers.
Guy Courtin Bio:
Guy Courtin is a well-respected thought leader and speaker on the future of supply chain, automation, and technology trends. As the Vice President of Industry and Global Alliances at Tecsys, he leads their omnichannel supply chain technology go-to-market strategy and oversees the global alliance program. He brings over 25 years of experience in the supply chain industry, having held senior leadership roles at 6 Rivers, Infor, Progress Software, and i2 Technologies. In addition, he has been an industry analyst covering the supply chain space for SCM World, Constellation Research, and Forrester Research. Guy holds an MBA from the Olin School at Babson College, a Master’s degree from Loyola University Chicago, and a Bachelor’s degree from The College of the Holy Cross.
Guy is a RETHINK Retail Top Expert. He has been featured in numerous industry publications, podcasts, and panels speaking on the evolving supply chain ecosystem, the role of technology, and the interplay between physical and digital customer experiences. He proffers insight into the future of the supply chain and how evolving technologies are forging new paradigms.
So welcome to another episode of Retail Relates. I am very excited to introduce everyone to Guy Courtin, and I'm really hoping I am pronouncing his last name right with the last name of Honiball (HONEY BALL). I take how people's names are pronounced very personally. He is somebody that I've known for three or four years and he is one of those people that you meet in life that doesn't introduce themselves by what they do for work.
Rich:I've had the chance to get to know Guy through Rethink Retail. We've had several conversations. We went to have the opportunity to go to breakfast once at the end of a conference and the conversation was on a wide range of issues personal and professional, and different topics and it's when I invited him to be on this podcast and I find his take on many subjects to be refreshing. The reality is that Guy is an expert when it comes to end-to-end logistics, supply chain technology and its use and sometimes misuse, and so he adds that tangible value to the episode.
Rich:I think the discussion of when companies take technology too far and chase the shiny object can be an issue. Conversely, when companies or individuals shun technology because they're afraid of what it might do to their jobs or they live in fear of it. I think he does a very good job framing out the risk that we take and not being able to advance, and I think you'll especially like his take on the need to continually develop personal relationships. It is one of those things that we take for granted in this day and age of the risk of becoming a dystopian novel where I'll have my AI contact your AI before we ever meet, and thankfully our AIs didn't stand in the way of Guy and I meeting, so hope you enjoy this episode. For now I'm going to turn it over to Paula, who will introduce our guest, and we will see you on the other side.
Paula:So Guy Courtin is a well-respected thought leader and speaker on the future of supply chain automation and technology trends. As the vice president of industry and global alliances at Texas, he leads their omni-channel supply chain technology go-to-market strategy and oversees the global alliance program. He brings over 25 years of experience in the supply chain industry, having held senior leadership roles at Six Rivers, infor, progress Software and i2 Technologies. In addition, he has been an industry analyst covering the supply chain space for SCM World, constellation Research and Forrester Research. Guy holds an MBA from the Olin School at Babson College, a master's degree from Loyola University, chicago and a bachelor's degree from the College of the Holy Cross. Guy is a REthink Retail top expert. He has been featured in numerous industry publications, podcasts and panels speaking on the evolving supply chain ecosystem, the role of technology and the interplay between physical and digital customer experiences. He proffers insight into the future of the supply chain and how evolving technologies are forging new paradigms. Guy, thank you so much for being on the show. We really appreciate you and your time.
Guy:Thank you for having me here.
Paula:Awesome, so we're going to get started on learning a little bit more about you. So, instead of asking you the traditional tell me about yourself, let's talk about what were the three most pivotal points in your career or life that have led you to where you are today.
Guy:You know, when I think about sort of the three key points in my life that have gotten me to where I am today, it's interesting. I'll take education aside. I think education certainly had a huge driver in where I've gotten to and where I am today. But from a professional perspective, I think the first one was I worked at Forrester. I worked at Forrester Research in the late 90s and those of us who are listening, who either were around or have read this in the history books, remember it was a dot-com boom, and I mean I can go on for hours about a lot of the things I saw during that time. I mean, the one I like to bring up is you know are this little company out of Seattle used to come brief us and they were so cute, they sold books and CDs online and you know it's Jeff Bezos guy and why don't you call it bookscom or CDscom and you call it Amazon. And you know I look back on that and just those interactions and I realized just how far ahead they were thinking in terms of where retail was going, where fulfillment was going, and then also, you know, not just Amazon but a whole raft of startups and other companies that I was privileged to talk to during the time and to some degree you know, seeing the rise of the dot-coms and how it drove our economy and then the subsequent crash, you know it's just as big of a part of it as anything. So I think that's one a big influence in terms of where I've gotten to.
Guy:I think the second one is coming out of business school and really getting into supply chain, getting into fulfillment and logistics and going to a company called i2, which is now Blue Yonder. That really gave me an insight into what I thought at the time. I remember coming out of the dot-com boom and being like big problem here is we have all these promises for consumers and then we realized wait, a minute, I got to move that product from point A to point B and I have to do it in a profitable way. So this whole area of logistics and fulfillment and supply chain really was important and I really gravitated towards, and being able to work at ITU was absolutely massive from that perspective. It really gave me a lot of insight and a lot of experience across the board and supply chain, but specifically in retail.
Guy:And I would say the third one, more recently, is and this is I don't want to say by luck, but it kind of just happened by circumstance. I ended up at a company called Six River. We did robotics for warehousing. It really opened my eye to this whole automation world, robotics, what it means for the future, not just the fulfillment but in our industry as a whole and really getting my hands around that and spending a lot of time in that space has really, at least in the recent past so in the past few years has really pushed me in a different direction in terms of my career and to some degree in terms of my curiosity and what I've looked at. So I would say those are sort of the three big points in my life that I reflect back on have really impacted where I've ended up today.
Rich:Is this what you wanted to do? One of the things that I will editorialize is that when I met you, I really I wasn't sure what you did, because we would have conversations that would run the gamut just because of your curiosity. So, coming out of school, is this where you were heading or did you have another path in mind?
Guy:Yeah, you know, rich, if you asked the 10-year-old guy and then the 18-year-old guy and then the 22-year-olds, the term supply chain would probably be not in the top, you know, be number 197 on the list of 100. So, yeah, it's education-wise, you know it's education wise, you know. I, I, I'll be frank, um, I, you know, I went through my education process kind of not really knowing where I wanted to go, what I wanted to do. Um, I have two incredibly high achieving parents that kind of was an issue at sometimes. Um, both my parents have PhDs. Uh, I will freely admit, until I was about 20 years old, I just assumed everybody got a PhD. And then I realized, nope, no, no, no, not everybody gets a bachelor's, let alone a master's, let alone a PhD. And so, you know, in my mindset, rich, it was always I go to school because that's what you do, you get your education, you advance and you get a master's and maybe get a PhD. I didn't. But really, for me, what I look back upon in my education in terms of what I wanted to do, in a weird way, coming out of it, I knew I wanted to do something that was global, that was, I want to say, a little bit more nebulous, meaning I wasn't someone who went to college and said, oh, I'm going to be a lawyer, so I'm going to study political science and then go to law school, or I'm going to be an accountant, so I need to understand accounting, or would be a doctor, right and go to medical school, or I would be an artist or whatever trade you know someone pursues. I really I didn't have sort of that, that direction. Now you could argue, it's funny because my mother's Chinese. So, being a tiger mom, you could think she'd be like no, you're going to be a doctor or you're going to do this, and. But she wasn't like that. But you know it, it really kind of just found its way to where I am today.
Guy:And I will say I mentioned back to Paul your earlier question about influence when I was at Forrester. What was great for me is I always knew I liked technology Rich. That was definitely an area I was curious about, not to the level of becoming a programmer or building hardware, but really how technology impacted people's lives and how we took advantage of it. And Forrester really opened my eyes even more to that and I think it was really influential in terms of, hey, there's a lot of opportunity out there in terms of tech, in terms of, to some degree, of being able to understand or translate tech to what most people could relate to. So that's kind of what pushed me in that direction.
Guy:And then I think, again by circumstance, I ended up being in supply chain and been in the space for 25 years and I love it. And to your question, I was like I didn't study operations in college. I didn't study, I didn't do. I mean I did some math but I wasn't very good at it. So I never really took what you would consider air quotes a traditional supply chain path.
Gautham:G, let me ask a question. You talked about multiple different touch points in your career. Can you share with the audience your star success and is possibly a failure that you learned from?
Guy:To your question. I always tell this to people. You know I've been doing this, like I said, for 25 years. I used to consider myself, oh, I'm just a young guy in the industry. Now I'm like, oh no, I'm kind of a grisly veteran. I've been around the block.
Guy:One of the things I learned early on and I will freely admit from a personal perspective getting let go from a company is really hard, right, that's a shock to the system. The harsh reality is anybody, I would say, in any industry today, moving forward. That's going to be part of where we live. You know the days of people starting at a company and retiring at that company. It's few and far between. Like you know, it's interesting. My cousin, who's a couple of months older than me, she actually has been at Chevron since she left college, so she's been there, that's it. And it's just it's mind boggling to me that that's still available. But for me I think that's the first lesson was this notion of you know what companies are going to hire and fire. I mean, that's just the reality of the world we live in. I think this whole notion of being an employee at will we have to remember that I think it's harsh, it's brutal, it's tough. At the same point, the one lesson or the big lesson I took out of that Gotham was that you know what. You're a smart kid, you can get through it. You'll find another job. It stinks, it's hard I'm not saying it's easy but there's ways to get to the next step. And part of that, too, is the lesson I have always taken from. That is not to say you're always trying to leave, because I'm not. I'm very hyper today, but you always have to be your number one champion, meaning you have to build your brand, you have to build your skillset. You have to be your number one champion, meaning you have to build your brand, you have to build your skill set, you have to promote yourself. You have to, as an individual out there, be prepared to toot your own horn because no one else will. And that's the one harsh lesson that I've taken.
Guy:Now, the positive to me has been a lot of the experiences I've had throughout my career. The real positive is just the ability to build this great network that you can rely on, and I think that's been a positive for me, and it's not one incident where that's happened. It's really been across the board, starting at Forrester and through business school and I2 and other companies. And from that perspective and I do think what's interesting is with today's digital tools, linkedin in particular the ability to continue to build that network is invaluable and I think that's a positive.
Guy:I've taken out of it and I don't know if that's a good or a bad thing, but I do travel a lot and there are times where I'll run into people who remember me and I hate to say this and I apologize. Sometimes I'm like I don't remember who the heck you are. But that's why LinkedIn is great. I think I know this person is and I look them up, but it's just that feeling of hey, you know you've made an impact on people and they remember you and hopefully you do right for by them and usually you do, and I think that's the positive I've taken, you know, through through my career and I continue.
Guy:I hopefully continue to do so and and that you know it's like meeting with podcast, so you know something was right, but no, I think that's. Those are the two areas Gotham, and I think you know from a, like I said at the end of the day, especially in the industry that I work in, but industry as a whole. You're your number one champion. So make sure you build yourself in that way and it's not bragging, but because you know what. No one else is going to do it for you. You got to do it for yourself.
Gautham:I love that. I always I start every semester with one key point build your own brand, which is what you talked about and I also talk about. The only thing permanent is change and if you look at Bureau of Labor Statistics, the average, the median tenure has come down to, I think, 3.5 years or something at a company and I personally think we'll be a network of connected humans at some point of time. It's no sure corporations might be different. So I love what you said. I do have one quick follow-up question to you. Right, it is a shock to the system, as you said, sometimes being let go. Any advice for people to navigate that immediate environment?
Guy:Yeah, and I know this is going to sound easier said than done, right, I think the first and foremost is to take a step back. We all get that and I'll freely admit, I fell into the same trap. Right, you get let go and the first thing you're doing you're on the phone, you're on email, you're on LinkedIn. You're like, oh, I got to find the next job and I get it. That's a natural human reaction. I think.
Guy:For me, what I've learned in the past is hey, you take a pause, take a breath. Right, take some time, decompress. I mean, it is a shock to the system. You've basically been told it's not you, it's me and I'm going to break up with you and that's tough. Right, that's tough any way you look at it. And I also don't want to diminish like, there's obviously a financial aspect to it, right? I mean, you know, at the end of the day, we're not doing this for charity. We have families to maintain, we got to pay rent. You know we have to pay mortgages, we have to buy food.
Guy:What I would tell people is give yourself permission to just decompress, take a step back and don't rush into, you know, trying to find the next job. That doesn't mean sit around for a year, but that means you know being able to enjoy time with your family, enjoy time by yourself, enjoy time you know with your friends, not to sound cheesy but go for a walk. I think it really helps to clear the cobwebs, clear the mind. And then I would say you know it's start networking. And part of what I said earlier too and I think this is hopefully you're doing this already is you should always be networked, whether you're at a great job that you're going to be for the rest of your life, or you're out and you're independently wealthy, whatever situation you are, you should always be networking, because these are the times when you're going to lean on that network, and I think that's the important part.
Guy:So the challenge is that hopefully, or you should be networking regularly so that when this does happen, the first thing you're doing is not reaching out to people who are like who the heck are you? And you're like wait, we talked two years ago. And that's the part I think that people forget is I get calls a lot and I try to help as much as I can. People who got laid off are like hey, I'm looking for a new job, here's my resume. I try to help as much as I can and I'm fine with that. But I will freely admit the ones relationship, no matter how minimal that feels, will get more of my attention than someone out of the blue just like hey, I need a job, help me.
Rich:Yeah, and I love the comment there because, if you think about it, one of the challenges right now is when people are applying for jobs and there's a conversation about technology and humanity. Ai might might might be able to help you get your resume past a thousand other people, but the personal connections that we build are more likely to get you to the right place. So I think that's a good exclamation. So I'm going to pivot a little bit to learning more about your experience with supply chain technology, talk a little bit about circular commerce. But I'm going to start with a basic question, because one of the reasons that we started this podcast is to expose kind of a 360 degree view of retail to those in search of a career at the early stage of their career. Gautam would probably say the same thing, and I've learned it is that we're teaching a lot of remarkable young students, but the majority of them aren't looking at retail as a career. So I will ask you the very simple question what is retail?
Guy:What is retail?
Guy:What is retail? So I'm going to answer in a very esoteric way. I've said that retail is one of only two industries that all of us here on this podcast and listening are a part of. The other one is healthcare. Right, because at the end of the day, whether we're shopaholics and we buy way too much stuff I might fall in that category or we just buy our basic groceries and clothing, et cetera, we are part of retail. If we go see our doctor which we all should and our dentist, then we're part of healthcare the other industries we might or might not be part of. So I'll start with that answer, rich.
Guy:But retail to me is really, at the end of the day, it's the majority of what we do, because it's all transactional. And I would even say, if we look at some parts of healthcare, there's certainly some parts of retail that creep into that. If I look at a pharmacy, a retail pharmacy, that's retail. Yeah, they're selling me prescriptions and things like that, but it's retail, it's a transaction. I as a consumer, going in to acquire a product, whether that product is something fun for me, like a new suit, or something I need, like medication, it's a transaction. So to me, retail is really spans a very wide swath in terms of what it is for our daily lives. And then I would say what is retail from an industry side? You know, we see I hate to use this analogy but I apologize the iceberg right. We see, the top of the iceberg is always grocery stores and clothing stores and shopping malls and e-commerce sites and mobile sites and all this. What we don't see is everything underneath, and that's a lot of stuff that I deal with Supply chain right. Reverse logistics, fulfillment, planning, sourcing, manufacturing, moving products, storing products, disposing of products, right. There's a whole world that deals with retail that we don't see on a daily basis.
Guy:I'll give you a funny story. So I mentioned my parents. My mother, obviously very educated. She has a PhD in art history and an MBA and all that good stuff and has her own business and very smart, and for the last couple of decades she's like what the hell do you do? I don't understand what your business is. Pandemic hits, she gives me a phone call. Hey, I know what you do now. I went to the grocery store. There was nothing on the store shelves. I understand what supply chain is now. To me, it was an example of. You know, we see that top of the iceberg. We don't see what's below it. Something like pandemic hits and all of a sudden we realize, hey, there's a whole infrastructure of stuff that's related to retail, that goes on, that gets you that roll of toilet paper onto the supermarket shelf at the right time and the right place at the right price.
Rich:That's a perfect segue into and I'm okay with the analogy on the iceberg, as long as we're not the Titanic heading towards it. But it's a good segue into the lesson in your background, because what you do and would love to pick your brain a little bit more are the things that go unnoticed to the average consumer but are a very critical part of retail and an exciting part of the industry. When I ask you the question, the underlying tone is make me excited about it as somebody who's been more on the buying and the marketing end. If you can't get the product in front of the customer or to them on time, then it doesn't really matter. Tell me how let's talk about how technology has impacted the supply chain. How has it evolved since I've started, especially in the supply chain?
Guy:side is the digitization of supply chain, of the relationship. The other big driver I've seen from digital transformation is the power of the consumer. Right, I look back to you know, when I was before I got to Forrester, it was always well like. Walmart told you what to do, almost right. Walmart dictated and they still have a lot of power, don't get me wrong, I get that, but Walmart was really the 800-pound gorilla. They dictate things and I as a consumer just kind of took whatever you offered me the price or the product or the availability and I took it for granted.
Guy:I remember back when I was a kid and I'm a big soccer fan and I remember my only access to getting a French national team soccer kit was I'd have to get a French soccer magazine called ONZ, which stands for 11, go to the back page and there was like one page of products and I would have to get my grandmother to fill it out and order it and then put it on a boat, or they would put it on a boat to get to me and maybe it would get to me within a month or two or maybe three months, but at some point it would get to me and it was super exciting, but I was at the whim of you know, this retailer. That's the only way I could get this. Digital has obviously turned this upside down. I think today, to some degree, we take it for granted, like, oh well, I can buy some Persian rug from the middle of Pakistan and have it shipped to me no rug from the middle of Pakistan and have it shipped to me, no issue. Or I can buy some spice from Brazil and have it shipped to me, no issue, right? Or I can be a hot sauce vendor in Brooklyn and send it and sell it to anyone in the world.
Guy:We take this digital connectivity, I think, at times for granted, but when I look at the biggest disruptor I've seen in terms of retail, that's been it and what that's done is that has given the power, obviously, to us as consumers. Because, again, I have a now 17-year-old. When he was a little kid he still loves Legos. He'd walk into a Target If he didn't see the Lego he liked. He'd be like dad, give me your phone, I'm going to get on Google or Amazon, I'm going to find the product I want and I can order it when I want. Now I wouldn't always let him do it, but in his mindset well, why can't I get it? I could get whatever I want. If it's not in the store, I'll get it somewhere else.
Guy:What that's also has done from a pressure perspective is now our supply chains have to be even more responsive. Our supply chains have to be able to meet this demand that's been created by the digital front end, and then we need to take as many tools as we can from that digitization to help us drive the supply chain. So, whether that's better planning, better forecasting, better understanding of where inventory is, better understanding of transportation needs, better understanding of desires, if you will, of consumers, I think that is the underlying tool that will help us meet those needs. But that digital consumer has really turned everything upside down, and especially from a supply chain perspective. Because, yeah, I can put up a lot of pretty pictures and descriptions using a website or a mobile site.
Guy:I still got to move that product and that product guess what it's in the physical world, and that's last I checked. I can only move a ship across the ocean at a certain speed. I can only get to so many items through the Suez Canal unless someone runs a boat aground. I can only get stuff on the road moving as quickly as I can. You know, there are physical constraints that we absolutely have to deal with, and that's the challenge, guy let me ask a follow-up question.
Gautham:It's interesting that we're having this conversation today sudden depetus baby when yesterday I was talking about supply chain innovations and giving a talk on how the firms are engaging in these activities, several of them engaging in emerging technologies such as blockchain, ai, metaverse and IoT. Right, you worked in a robotic company before, as I remember it. Talk to us about how these emerging technologies are changing in supply chain, and I also want to ask a follow-up question which is a little bit more directed towards my research. I'm finding that the financial markets might not be viewing it as positively as deploying more of the established technologies, the digitization that you spoke about, rfid, an age-old technology being deployed again. Can you talk about why that might be the case as well?
Guy:So to answer your last question, first, I think I'm not surprised that some of the financial institutions or financial markets are not as positive about some of these technologies, because I agree with them. I think a lot of the hype around let's take AI, for example a lot of the hype around AI is, I think, misplaced. I think it's also driven. I'm going to pick on not anybody by name, but I'm going to pick on software vendors like myself not saying me, but some in my space who have latched on to this notion of AI and just think by throwing AI at anything will all of a sudden make it better. First, I find that irresponsible because you know, when I give a talk on AI, all the time and I usually start my talk by putting up the date 1956. And I say, well, what happened that year? And hey, guess what? That's when AI was invented. Right, that's when they sat around at Dartmouth and talked about this thing called artificial intelligence. So it's not something that's new. It's been around for a while Now. Yeah, we have more computation power. We have a tremendous amount of data. So, yeah, we're achieving things we never thought we could with AI when it started in 1956. With that being said. One of the things that I see is we're trying to apply AI to things like better supply chain planning so that I can meet my consumers' needs and produce things at the right time, the right place to have, or the challenge I always have for things like that is well, wait a minute, you're trying to predict the future with the past. That doesn't work, right. That doesn't work, because who was going to tell me that in 2007, using historical data around mobile phones the Razer, nokia and all that they'd predict that the iPhone would be what it's become Now, in hindsight, of course oh my goodness, of course the iPhone is going to be what it was. Come on, give me a break. I remember when iPhone came out and I was a big BlackBerry user and I was like there's no way I'm using a non-textile. You know textile. Forget that. Motorola's Razr was the number one phone. It was selling like hotcakes and Motorola used their historical data to then up the production of Razr. Unfortunately, steve Jobs stood up and showed the iPhone at the same time, so now Motorola overproduced the phone and they got clobbered with that.
Guy:The reason I bring up this, gautam, is that I think there's a notion of well, let's throw more of this cool technology at the problem and it'll solve it? Man, I don't think so. We're still. I heard someone say this the other day, so I can't take credit for it. It's we're trying to solve the same problems, but just throw a new technology at it. The problems are the same, right, and just we have better tools. Yeah, we look at some of these new technologies. We have to separate ourselves from the coolness of the technology to the tool it's going to provide and then how we as an industry are going to leverage that tool.
Guy:I think it was with arms law or something where, you know, we we overestimate technology in the near term and underestimate in the longterm. I certainly think there's some aspect of that. I'm certainly not poo-pooing AI to the point of saying it's not getting important. I think there's some absolute use cases. I focus a lot on what I call sort of the narrow AI, right, so things. And I look in supply chain like hey, better fulfillment, better logistics, better last mile routing, better route optimization within the warehouse. You know blockchain held out all this promise of, oh well, we're going to have these secure supply chains, yada, yada, yada. Honestly, we were already doing that with non-blockchain technology.
Guy:If I look at some of my former employers, like GT, nexus and others who had created these networks and network of networks, you know we weren't using blockchain, but we were a reliable network, so sure I could do it on blockchain and be air quotes a little bit more secure. But if I've already created the network and it's pretty reliable, why am I going to change it? Why am I going to try to chase the best instead of just what's good enough? And I think that's where I'm seeing a lot of this. So the challenge I have for us in the supply chain space with tools is these new technologies are great, but give me the use case. I think we just have to be very cautious with that. I certainly I'm a technologist, so I always believe in the importance of technology, but I also believe in the give me a use case and don't just you know I'm a hammer and everything's a nail philosophy.
Gautham:I love that you gave me an. So what we did was we looked at a large amount of data to see how the stock market reacted to these innovations. And what you're saying we see in the data in the sense that more of the fundamental innovations are rewarded more than these emerging innovations. So it's just saying like, hey, get your host foundation right before you go to these more advanced cases, which is exactly the point you're making. Can I ask one follow-up question, maybe a little bit different and specific to retail?
Gautham:You know, like supply chain is seeing its movement in the spotlight. It used to be. It's a cost center. Right Now we're using this to deliver value and to differentiate. We're also moving from. Perhaps it's my perspective, but we used to think about getting products lean right, just-in-time delivery so that you have minimum inventory going through the system. But with these shocks that's happening in the system now, we have to think a little bit differently. Are you sensing that in the retail context? Are you seeing people changing the way they look at the flow of products through their value chain?
Guy:Yeah, gautam, the new term we're hearing all the time supply chain resilience, I would freely admit you. Ask five people what their definition of resilience is, you'll get seven definitions. For me, resilience is, yes, it's these shocks. But I also have this and I get frustrated at times because I will fully admit this, if I hear the term the new normal, I'm going to scream, because when I think of supply chain, there is no new normal, right, supply chain has always been about disruptions. Now, granted, pandemic, massive, global disruption, absolutely. But if you start boiling down supply chains, you realize that we've been dealing with this.
Guy:I'll give you an example Work with the Gap. Years ago they had a fire in a warehouse outside of Chicago One little warehouse I mean not little, but one warehouse out of all their warehouses burned. They basically told me that just ruined our Q3. We're done. We can't make our numbers because, to your point, gotham, like they were, like this is just in time, like our supply chain is resilient, we can't meet this now. So the reason I bring this story up is I think these types of disruptions are across the board and we as as everyday citizens, probably don't see most of them. We, as supply chain nerds, like we see this all the time and I think what we're seeing more and more is that, yes, this notion of resilience, this notion of of JIT right, just more, is that, yes, this notion of resilience, this notion of of JIT right, just in time, is kind of being pushed out because on paper, oh yeah, it makes perfect sense. Rich clicks buy on the computer and or he's browsing an item on the computer and that signal is going back and the factory's actually building it. So once you hit buy, it's finished building and it's on the truck and it's going to your house in two weeks. Amazing, right. And Dell kind of gave us that example when they did and I can talk about Dell in a second of what they really were doing but Dell was doing that and we all thought, well, this JIT model is perfect, we should all do that. No inventory, no carrying costs, right, the customer gets your product at the same time. But then we realized, back to this notion of a physical world, there is physics involved. I have to physically move an object, store it. Things like fires happen, things like theft, things like, you know, bad planning, all these things happen. So what I'm seeing and what's interesting is outside of retail.
Guy:I'll take another example, like in the healthcare space I am seeing more and more, especially in like pharmaceuticals, where for a while they played around the notion of just in time hospitals, et cetera. Now they realize, eh, we can't do that. You know, this is about really at times about life and death, and we can't be like, well, paula's really sick and has rushed to the emergency room, we'll get the products to her just-in-time. No, you can't do that because you can't predict when she's going to be in and oh, by the way, if you are delayed it has real repercussions. So we have to be more concerned about the patient and the care than in terms of the accounting and finance, and I think we're seeing that across the board, especially in certain areas of retail.
Guy:I think what I'm seeing in retail from a supply chain side, which I think is very interesting, is because there's another factor to this, which is personalization. How can I personalize products? Because I want. I'll give you an example. I'm, unfortunately, when we talked earlier about all this being part of the retail space I do shop a little bit too much, and one of my favorite things now is you can buy these custom shirts, and one of the things on these shirts is you can literally have one sleeve a little bit shorter or longer than the other one. I've done this before. So I mentioned I'm a soccer player, I'm an Adidas person through and through and I used to order my boots through Adidas and you could, hey, my right foot's a 10 and my left foot to 10 and a half, so you could have this real personalization. Uh, let alone, you know, putting the French flag on the shoes and all that stuff. But anyways, part of that is supply chain too. Right Is how, how long can I delay the final product so that I can personalize at the last point? And I think that's where supply chain has a real powerful play with this. So it's resilience. Yes, like I want to make sure like a Home Depot hey, there's a hurricane coming I'm resilient and I can make sure I have the right products when people need it. Obviously, pharmacy another story.
Guy:But now also from a retail perspective.
Guy:You know, I want to order that sport coat, but I have a special need. I want to, you know, want it at the last minute. Okay, if I'm the retailer, how can I hold off to the last minute? Right, it's kind of like what Benetton did back in the 80s, which is I want to color that shirt at the very last moment so that I can just produce a bunch of white shirts and then someone wants a pink one, and someone wants a black one, and someone wants a blue one. I'll color it at the last second. That's a supply supply chain play and I think that's where, to your question, we're seeing that change in the mindset of retailers and others with their supply chain, which is it's not just a back office thing, it's not just something to get a product from point A to point B or to make it. It's really something where I can leverage it for a strategic opportunity to capture more revenue from the customer, to be more prepared to capture market share and to be more resilient, whatever that means for my specific supply chain.
Rich:You mentioned technology and specifically AI. There's this ongoing debate that is happening globally here in the country on this podcast about the use of technology and its impact on the workforce. You talk about the reality that we may be overly dependent on technology. Organizations are falling in love with the shiny object to seemingly solve problems, but aren't really identifying what those problems are. On the other hand, we have this potential resistance to technology when it can help solve the problem, because people are afraid of it and the potential loss of jobs. Where do we find the balance here.
Guy:That's a massive question, and I think we've seen it recently, right With the threat of the port strike on the East Coast. A big reason for that strike was they didn't want more automation. But the challenge I would say to that is yeah, but automation? I mean, do you want to go back to the 1920s, when your dock workers all carry these big claws and were just like claw stuff and moving into boats? The infusion of some automation and jobs, like offloading and unloading boats, is important. Why? Because it's about safety, it's about repetitiveness, it is about protecting the human as well.
Guy:But there is that perception that it's going to take jobs and I can't sit here and say, oh, no, no, no, automation and AI and all this aren't going to eliminate some jobs. But so did the telephone, so did the steam engine, so did a whole host of innovations the loom, the weave, loom, right, all these technical innovations that we've seen throughout time. These industrial innovations have eliminated jobs. Have they eliminated employment? No, but they've eliminated certain jobs in manufacturing and warehousing. But why is that? If you look at the Japanese population, it's at a net negative right. There's not enough birth rates in Japan to sustain people that are aging out of work. There's not a big immigration population, so you don't have a lot of labor to sustain what you have. So where do you turn? You turn to automation. I look at the United States. If you take away the immigration population, we have the same problem here we're at a net deficit in terms of population. So automation, invariably, is going to have to play a role with that, because we just don't have literally the humans to do some of the work.
Guy:I'll give you an example. I worked at Six Rivers. We were an AMR right Autonomous Mobile Robot in the warehouse to help do picking. We would go literally into some warehouses where the warehouse would say, listen, we just cannot find labor, we just can't. We need these robots because we don't have enough people to pick.
Guy:So, yes, there was some or a lot of sales opportunities where it was hey, we're going to make you do more picking more efficiently, and all this resisting labor. We had a whole host who said, literally we can't find labor. So what do I need to do? I need to look at automation, because robotics and automation will complement the labor I already have and just maintain what I can do, not get ahead. That's what we're really looking at from that perspective, rich, and I do think there's a perception which is, hey, robots and all this will take jobs, and yeah, they'll take some jobs away, but they won't take employment away. And I think the savvy retailers and others who are looking at robots will look at this as a complementary technology to maintain where they are and potentially get a little bit ahead. And will there be some disruption in their jobs? Potentially, but the employment level will stay the same.
Rich:Yeah, and I think you've seen that in some countries where the agreement has been that the automation would call for a maintaining of the employment strength and you could grow output I know that's what took place in the textile industry in Italy. So I was reading this article the future of retail in a post-pandemic world found it fascinating. So I was reading this article the Future of Retail in a Post-Pandemic World found it fascinating, and I wanted to know if the person being interviewed for that a couple of years ago is seeing come true what you talked about, and specifically with the circular economy, and you can delve into returns if you want. But I'm particularly interested in your thoughts on circular commerce.
Guy:Yeah, and whoever was for that interview must have been brilliant. But no, I think the circular economy has not gone to the place I had hoped or believed it would have at this point. It doesn't mean that it's not going to, but I think the circular economy and it's interesting because some of the statistics I remember looking up back then and I looked up some recent ones, but just some recent ones like 92 million tons of textiles waste per year globally, the US accounts for 17 million of that. I mean I think somehow it came down to like 60 pounds per person in the United States of textiles was thrown and it basically all goes to landfill. That is just not sustainable, no pun intended.
Guy:But what has been frustrating for me is we've seen a lot of efforts, whether it's consumer electronics, whether it's companies like Madewell what their interesting return policy? Whether it's companies like Levi's trying to reduce the amount of water used for jeans all great efforts. I just feel at times that we as consumers have not shifted our mindset yet. All we have to do is look at like Timu right, timu pops up and all of a sudden they're selling. Like what are they selling? They're selling a bunch of. I hate to say it this way but crap that we end up probably throwing away. So for every step forward we take, it's almost like we take two steps back because someone finds a way to take advantage of our, in a way, short-sightedness and acting like a two-year-old at times, when you just dangle something in front of us and we have to buy it and then it sits in our closet and we never use it.
Guy:So I think that's the challenge I have from that perspective, rich. So unfortunately, I don't think we've gotten to where I believed we were headed. I think we still can. I still get encouraged because I still see I gave an example recently. I was in Norway and I was flying out of the airport and I was pleasantly surprised that when I was walking through the Oslo airport there was a pop-up store selling secondhand not luxury, yes, but still secondhand products and I was like that's pretty cool. And then there was a lot of people in there looking like they were at least browsing, if not buying no-transcript for 10 euros. What does that mean for sustainability? Am I going to wear them once or twice and then forget them and then they end up in my closet or in the landfill? That's not good either.
Gautham:Let me just make a quick remark as a person who studies sustainability for a while. Every effort to save the planet and the people is worth it. Right On the flip side, when you said mindset, I was hoping you would go to the direction that, irrespective of what we do, we need to change this consumption over consumption orientation, right. I personally feel, and I'm change this consumption over consumption orientation, right. I personally feel and I'm working on some of these things, we'll see if these ever see the light of day is that often when you engage in these secondhand products or so, it's also giving you a license to purchase and there is a possibility that we might be actually making having some unintended consequences. Again, I'm speculating, I'm working on some stuff to try and establish that causality. But there has to be a lot of changes in mindset, particularly and it's not just mindset, it's also financial mindset, where it's all.
Guy:Gautam, I can't agree with you more. It's interesting because the secondary market now I will say maybe to your point what you're finding is I found it's interesting that most of the secondary market stuff I see that seems successful is usually for higher end goods, right? So things that aren't technically seen as disposable and things that are seen as potentially having more value if they are weathered. Right, like, hey, I get a pair of red tab Levi's, those are amazing. Like I'll get those, but I'm not going to buy a pair of Gap jeans because I can just get rid of them. So I do agree, I think the mindset has to change. I just don't know how we change that, and I don't mean to stand on a soapbox, but part of it is we're fighting against this behemoth of an Amazon that gives us the perception or the mindset that I can order whatever I want. They'll get to me in two hours, two days, and you know what, if I don't need it, I just put it in my closet, or if I get, or and I'll, I'll freely admit I fall victim to that, like I will. The other day I ordered a soil tester because we were talking about our soil in Vermont. We had to test it. So I went to Amazon and bought a soil tester. Now I'll use it. But I'm like, do I really need this? It's only five bucks and they'll ship it to me because I'm Amazon Prime, so it's free.
Guy:But there's that notion of consumerization that is hard to break. I do think at times when I look at my son and children younger than him, that generation I'm sensing a little bit of a shift from that perspective. Is it sustainable? No pun intended, I don't know, but it's a good, it's a good way of, because you know there's, I mean, now, does he like buying stuff and especially having his dad buy stuff? Absolutely, but I don't think it's as pronounced, maybe, as my generation, our generation. You know what have you?
Guy:But yeah, I think, and I think the challenge to Gotham is like what happens when more and more of the world gets elevated which it should from a socioeconomic level. Right, we look at China, right? I mentioned my mom's Chinese like when she talks to me about when she was in China, very different than where it is today. I mean, I remember she sent, she showed me a picture of Shanghai when she went back in 1980 and the Bund and what it looks like today. It's shocking, right, shocking Well, guess what? That's another couple of million billion consumers right there. That just got turned on.
Rich:So that's a tough balance and a real struggle in retail in how we look at value and values. I think the goal or the hope is, to your point, that consumers and retailers, when we buy for more hedonistic reasons, more for want or pleasure or emotion, that we do so not with a disposable mentality but rather purchasing something with long-term value, and I'm sure this is a conversation that we are going to continue to have. This is a good opportunity for us to shift to the advice part of the program. Of course, we've already gotten some great advice from Guy, but, paula, why don't you take the first question?
Paula:What do you think has been the best advice you've ever received? Words of wisdom from a mentor, advice you've seen, or a mantra that you've had that has gotten you through hard times.
Guy:The one piece of advice, that at least the one thing that I constantly try to work on myself and I try to tell people like I get questions from students, grads, anybody is the art of storytelling. I think at the end of the day, regardless of what we do and regardless of what industry we're in or what profession or where we are, no-transcript, the story you tell a partner and I think that's the important part is to be able to tell the story. And I think a lot of times the one thing I've learned is too often, especially in the business world, we try to communicate purely in numbers and unfortunately, we've all become written or sort of dominated by PowerPoint. We got to put in a PowerPoint, it's got to be these slides. And then you see slides where I'm like dude, you're at font seven, I can't read anything on your slides and I'm always like why are you here talking to me? If I could just read your slides, just email me your slides and I never have to see you, I'll read through them.
Guy:So the challenge I always tell people is all right, what's the story Like? Why are you showing like you let the slides or whatever props you have support it, but tell a story. Tell me a story. Why am I listening to you? Why are we here? What's the point? And I think that's an important skill to have and it might be seen as, yeah, communication, but I really think it's more that story, because as humans, I think we still remember stories. We don't necessarily remember numbers and facts and figures and graphs and all that, but we'll remember a story and I think that's really important At least it has been for me in my career is being able to tell that story and relate to people.
Guy:Because what I always learn is you've got opportunities to talk and meet people. Make sure they remember you by something, and usually that something is a good story and usually that good story is something they can relate to, as opposed to me going in there and telling them how fantastic my cloud-based software is and the algorithm it creates can do blah, blah, blah and they're like okay and their eyes roll in the back of their heads. But if I can tell them a story about how my kid was asking for something and because I use this technology, I was able to find it really quickly and something rather than made the kid happy, hey, I get that. So I think for me, paul, it's that storytelling ability and I think that's just been, you know, my mentors that have been able to give me pieces of that. I can remember through my career, who you know showed me how to tell those good stories and how to the tricks of the trade, so to speak, to make the story that much more memorable, more powerful, and basically how to communicate it.
Rich:And in true retail fashion. I think you just gave us a BOGO, because the next question we were going to ask is for the most underrated skill, but I think you just gave us both mentoring advice and an underrated skill.
Guy:Yeah, underrated skill and, I think, one that's easy to think about, hard to master.
Rich:Well, I would absolutely agree with that. So we are going to I'm going to turn it over to Paula to kick off the fun part. So this has been a lot of fun, but now we have a little bit of fun at your expense.
Paula:Oh, it's not that bad, rich is just. He's just trying to psych you out. Okay, so are you ready for the rapid fire, guy?
Guy:Let's rapid fire this.
Paula:All right. So each one of us will ask a question. Your only job is to tell us the first answer that pops in your head. First one what is your go-to comfort food?
Guy:All right. So I'm gonna ask a question to qualify that. When you define comfort food, like, are we talking about what kind of food? Or one memorable meal, or what are we talking about here?
Paula:No, like the food that when you're feeling sick, you're like I need to have this chicken soup, because it's the only thing that makes me feel better right now.
Guy:So, all right, I'll answer it this way the two comfort foods I have and unfortunately I can't get access to them anymore were both my grandmother's. My Chinese grandmother made the greatest dumplings and that was always my comfort food when I go visit her. And then my French grandmother used to make French fries and duck fat and if you've ever had French fries and duck fat, there's nothing better and so she would sit there and make me steak frites with fries and duck fat, and when I was a kid, that was like I could just eat that and be happy the rest of my life.
Rich:So you can transport with all the traveling you've done. You can transport yourself anywhere in the world 24 hours, instantaneously. Get there, instantaneously, come back. No airports, where do you go?
Guy:Can I go back there again later?
Rich:Yes, absolutely.
Guy:I mean, I'm going to say Paris and I know that's an easy answer. I'm Parisian, it's my hometown, but if I can get there and come back in 24 hours, right now done.
Gautham:It's my turn too. So let's move away from food and location and let's ask about people. Who are the three people you would invite for dinner if you had access to anyone?
Guy:all right. So, um, first one would be my paternal grandfather. Um, he unfortunately passed away when I was fairly young, so I never really got a chance to spend time with him. Um, uh, the next two are going to be awful when I say these, but I'm going to say them anyway. So I I'm a political science by trade, so I love political science and history.
Guy:So one is going to be Napoleon, because I just think, yes, militarily, I think what he did was great. Now, I might get thrown stuff at for saying that, but I also think, in terms of running a country, he did some really interesting stuff and I would love to talk to him. And then, uh, my third one is, uh, my favorite political philosopher is Machiavelli, and I'm going to preface this by saying to 99 people 99% of people who quote Machiavelli have never read Machiavelli. I'm that 1% has read the prints multiple times, and others works Cause I was a political science major and I did go to grad school for it, so I did spend a lot of time and I will freely admit I'm the weird person sometimes I'm playing who has a copy of the prints and I'm reading it, and people are like they asked me.
Paula:They'll ask me like, are you taking class? I'm like no, I'm just reading it because I like it's a great book. And they're like, okay, dude, like we're going to school for it. But yeah, I'm not as passionate as you are, so I can admire that passion very much so.
Guy:Yeah, I caught myself the other day flipping through Adam Smith's Wealth of Nations and reading, and my girlfriend's like what are you doing? I'm like I don't. Oh, this is really interesting. I forgot about this.
Rich:I was somewhere between Advise and Consent, which stoked my interest in politics at one point, and Brave New World, which I hope we're not heading towards, but that's one that every once in a while I'll start flipping through and I'll get the. Are you studying that? No, one of my favorite books.
Guy:Yeah, I read that and yeah, we won't have to get into that. But what did I read the other day too? I was reading another dystopian type book and I was like this is way too close to what could happen and it's not. It's interesting to read, but I don't want to live it.
Paula:Yeah, for sure. Well, guy, on behalf of the team, thank you so much for being with us, thank you for your time and, most of all, thank you for sharing your unique perspective and advice. We're very grateful for you.
Guy:No, I am incredibly grateful you guys invited me to this. Always love chatting, so thank you so much. Really appreciate you guys inviting me, and you guys in order to find me, and Gautam, anytime you want to chat about some of your research, I'm always happy to talk about it, because it sounds like you're reaching a lot of stuff that I look at all the time too.
Gautham:I'll reach out soon. Then you said it Awesome.
Rich:Perfect. So I know Gautam had to step away to do some grading and I'm going to have to a little bit later. But, paula, I will ask you what you, what you thought of that and maybe talk a little bit about some of the lessons learned from from Guy.
Paula:You know he's really informative and it's an aspect of retail that we don't hear about often, which is the back end, right the logistics. We as consumers always see the end product, but we don't see the the entire ecosystem that is working behind the end product just to get us that product in front of us.
Rich:Well, I love the timeliness of the conversation because it's one where the reason that we decided to go down this exploration is there is going to be this shift in consumerism and there's going to be a shift in what jobs are available and what jobs aren't.
Rich:And we've talked about how retail is seen by some as a professional career and others it's not really a consideration when they're going through high school or college or for a few years in the military. Our goal has been to try and show that 360 degree view. Interesting is that those who do see it as a career tend to look at fashion design or fashion buying, and yet in the grander scale, that's actually a very small part of it. And so being able to talk about planning and analytics and HR and, in Guy's case, talking about the underneath of the iceberg and I like that analogy of the things that you don't necessarily see but that are critical. We had to depend on the supply chain during the pandemic and, much like frontline workers, people really appreciated the impact that a supply chain can have. It's well-rounded and it's fun to hear somebody talk about a subject like that with the kind of passion and curiosity that he has.
Paula:Yeah, so I'm sure this conversation was most interesting to you too.
Rich:Well, yeah, and I do think and you and I have talked about it quite a bit about the role of technology, and this was interesting because of Guy's perspective of technology is not going to solve your problems, but neither is avoiding the technology altogether, and so there is that middle ground that is critical, and I do. I think I would ask you, from the perspective of what you think about building relationships and being able to lean on them.
Paula:The World Economic Forum put out a study of the skills that the next workforce, the next generation so not even like Gen Z that's already in the workforce, like we're talking about, like our kids, right, and for some people, grandkids, that generation the skills that they will need in the workforce and I think like seven out of 10 of them were soft skills. So that tells us, that's an indicator, that tells us that relationship aspect and work is going to be even more instrumental in helping you get ahead in your professional career and just being a good human.
Rich:And being a good human is a great place.
